NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3138214 3-Oct-2023 12:36

Gangs, The main issue with gangs has been our Australian 'brothers in arms' sending us 501's.
Continuing in a pandemic as well.
This has supercharged Gangs with more than 1000 operators used to a different market, bringing new ideas.

No NZ Government would have changed Australia's mind on this unfortunately.
Underarm Bowling and all.
It will continue under National/ACT/NZF

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-reports-reveal-fear-of-501-deportee-overload-and-risk-to-public-safety/MBFXGFDIBRB47CKIUVNVAE2B7I/#:~:text=A%20total%20of%202572%20people,began%20the%20policy%20in%202015.

""
A total of 2572 people were deported from Australia to New Zealand between January 1, 2015 and February 28, 2022 - more than double the number expected when Australia began the policy in 2015. Over the same period, New Zealand has deported 32 Australians.

Almost half (49 per cent) of the 501s had reoffended since arriving in Aotearoa, with crimes ranging from violence offences to drug and traffic violations.
""

SaltyNZ

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#3138215 3-Oct-2023 12:41

ezbee:
It will continue under National/ACT/NZF

Definitely. Zero chance they'll stop just because Mr. I Used To Run An Airline asks them to.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#3138221 3-Oct-2023 12:55

There are different issues here. Gangs are definitely a problem and they should not be tolerated. I would agree with National on that one except I don't believe anything National says.

My post was about individuals who somehow think they are entitled to abuse campaigners. Whether they are gang members or not, or have an interest in politics, are completely separate matters.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

quickymart

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#3138301 3-Oct-2023 15:45

https://policy.nz/2023

Good comparison site for the various parties and their policies.

BarTender

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#3138387 3-Oct-2023 18:08

Rikkitic:

JPNZ: Sadly the majority of the intimidation and abuse comes from the gangs which Labour has been pandering to for years. Its no question National will crack down on gangs so of course they are going to vote for the softer approach and the status quo.

Don't try to politicise it. This is not a Labour/National issue.

My problem with National's "ban all gang patches" nonsense is there is very little chance it will be enforced as it is a nonsense policy.

Gang members will do whatever they want, and unless the plan is to lock up every single gang member forever the only solution is to make all the alternatives to joining a gang more appealing. But sadly with National cutting core benefits back to inflation not wages I can only see the current drivers for crime and joining a gang remaining.

On the upside putting gang members in prison is such a good use of taxpayers money (sarcasm)

ezbee

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#3138388 3-Oct-2023 18:14

It's an old 'Dog Whistle' but it works.
I think everyone wants to see the power and influence of Gangs decreased (Except Harley Dealers)
Then there is Brian Tamaki's lot.

National/ACT Government light, sythe of cuts, is not going to do it as far as I can see.

For Police, Gang work is amongst the most complex, time consuming, expensive and skilled work they do.
Oh its dangerous as hell too.
To really get at it they may need many technical, accounting and other expensive skills to penetrate the network.
To cut Gangs from their money and power.

Nope putting 'junior fresh out of college' plod at end of street checking for speeding, WOFs, patches is not going hard on Gangs.
It will achieve nothing.

You need real expensive resource in long term programs and investigations.
National/Act/NZF are not planning to be spendy, except NZF's new prison, but before prison you need convictions that draw prison time.
Even they won't be doing serious prison time for wearing a patch.

At the top of the cliff.
You need to resource social services and emergency accommodation to get families and kids away from their Gang associates.
Um dealing with poverty that Gangs prey on.

By all accounts National/Act/NZF will be tightening social housing and emergency housing so it's back to living in the park.
Easy for Gangs then, pop along to the park and say hey kid do you want a life with a future.

tdgeek

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#3138406 3-Oct-2023 19:06

BarTender:

My problem with National's "ban all gang patches" nonsense is there is very little chance it will be enforced as it is a nonsense policy.

Gang members will do whatever they want, and unless the plan is to lock up every single gang member forever the only solution is to make all the alternatives to joining a gang more appealing. But sadly with National cutting core benefits back to inflation not wages I can only see the current drivers for crime and joining a gang remaining.

On the upside putting gang members in prison is such a good use of taxpayers money (sarcasm)

We will remove patches. On the leaders debate what will you do in the 500 participant funeral?. Bypassed. Later in the media what will you do ? The Police can make that decision. So you make a statement (and I dont have an issue with ban patches in public) what I do have an issue with is "we" will ban patches in public then when asked for accountability "the Police will manage that" When it doesn't work as it wont, cast the blame elsewhere. That is unreal

Leaders debate, tonight IIRC (Ive been bypassing the media due to s sports event Im catching up on, Ryder Cup)

Hipkins has Covid, ok. Leaders debate tonight wet happen, ok. Lets re schedule it, but Luxon wont, he is too busy. Parliament is shut down, its now the campaign trail. Isn't a Leaders Debate the campaign trial??? So at any night he is busy at 7pm. ok

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tdgeek

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#3138408 3-Oct-2023 19:10

ezbee:

It's an old 'Dog Whistle' but it works.
I think everyone wants to see the power and influence of Gangs decreased (Except Harley Dealers)
Then there is Brian Tamaki's lot.

National/ACT Government light, sythe of cuts, is not going to do it as far as I can see.

For Police, Gang work is amongst the most complex, time consuming, expensive and skilled work they do.
Oh its dangerous as hell too.
To really get at it they may need many technical, accounting and other expensive skills to penetrate the network.
To cut Gangs from their money and power.

Nope putting 'junior fresh out of college' plod at end of street checking for speeding, WOFs, patches is not going hard on Gangs.
It will achieve nothing.

You need real expensive resource in long term programs and investigations.
National/Act/NZF are not planning to be spendy, except NZF's new prison, but before prison you need convictions that draw prison time.
Even they won't be doing serious prison time for wearing a patch.

At the top of the cliff.
You need to resource social services and emergency accommodation to get families and kids away from their Gang associates.
Um dealing with poverty that Gangs prey on.

By all accounts National/Act/NZF will be tightening social housing and emergency housing so it's back to living in the park.
Easy for Gangs then, pop along to the park and say hey kid do you want a life with a future.

I dont want to be "that guy", but Luxon is adding 300 new Police Officers. Great move. But Labour was already doing that. Oddly, Labours EARLIER announcement of this is budgeted at $124M. Nationals is also 124M how good is that?? Yes, I am being sarcy, but some on CL

gzt

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#3138409 3-Oct-2023 19:11

Handle9: I would have thought so but instead they tried to roll one of the grown ups instead. I give up on the greens, they are never going to get their act together.

You're referring to a minority challenge to Shaw's leadership a few months ago I think.

The Green Party constitution allows this specifically as a way to raise issues.

The leadership challenge predictably failed and as the mechanism intended probably had some beneficial effects for the party as a whole. Personally I think it's probably a healthy mechanism vs the secret coup with no warning stuff you tend to see from other parties quite frequently..

Handle9

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#3138411 3-Oct-2023 19:14

gzt:
Handle9: I would have thought so but instead they tried to roll one of the grown ups instead. I give up on the greens, they are never going to get their act together.

You're referring to a minority challenge to Shaw's leadership a few months ago I think.

The Green Party constitution allows this specifically as a way to raise issues.

The leadership challenge predictably failed and as the mechanism intended probably had some beneficial effects for the party as a whole. Personally I think it's probably a healthy mechanism vs the secret coup with no warning stuff you tend to see from other parties quite frequently..

Personally I think it shows a party which can't organise it's way out of a paper bag.

The secret coups are far from secret, they are always accompanied by months of media speculation.

gzt

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#3138422 3-Oct-2023 19:25

Media speculation. For the major parties no-one really has a clue what the issues at stake might be and the policies that are likely to shift as a result. It's all reading the tea-leaves and media commentators guessing and so called leaks. Compare that to the widely reported issues held by the challenging minority within the Green Party on that occassion.

tdgeek

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#3138423 3-Oct-2023 19:27

gzt:
Handle9: I would have thought so but instead they tried to roll one of the grown ups instead. I give up on the greens, they are never going to get their act together.

You're referring to a minority challenge to Shaw's leadership a few months ago I think.

The Green Party constitution allows this specifically as a way to raise issues.

The leadership challenge predictably failed and as the mechanism intended probably had some beneficial effects for the party as a whole. Personally I think it's probably a healthy mechanism vs the secret coup with no warning stuff you tend to see from other parties quite frequently..

I agree, and I've read Handles following post

GREENS. They are a solid and stable party. What they lose is the extreme left mantra. What they gain is the green mantra, they need to focus on that

Back in the day National was stuff the workers we support businesses. Labour was stuff the businesses we support the workers. Both were stupid. Businesses and workers need each other, so now we have milder centrist parties.

ACT is almost alt-right. Ludicrous with their extremes which will never make laws, same with Greens extreme left social politics.

Its quite ironic, and IMHO good, that Seymour and Swarbrick can live in a media room and argue, but appreciate each other. If the Greens and ACT can wind it back (to going after laws they can in fact achieve ) that would be good for NZ

It is a weird time

Handle9

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#3138424 3-Oct-2023 19:30

gzt: Media speculation. For the major parties no-one really has a clue what the issues at stake might be and the policies that are likely to shift as a result. It's all reading the tea-leaves and media commentators guessing and so called leaks. Compare that to the widely reported issues held by the challenging minority within the Green Party on that occassion.

No one has a clue what the issues at stake were with Shaw, just that a bunch of nutters wanted him gone for "reasons." They couldn't even find a candidate to replace him.

Saying that it wasn't widely know why Judith Collins, Todd Mueller, Andrew Little, Phil Goff or any other number of major party leaders was rolled is incorrect.

They got rolled because they weren't successful, it's really not hard to understand.

gzt

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#3138427 3-Oct-2023 19:35

I'd argue those major party leaders were rolled because they were not popular with the electorate and the sitting MPs who have the only votes in those parties wanted to keep their jobs.

gzt

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#3138429 3-Oct-2023 19:42

There were several direct comments from delegates on the reason for the challenge at the time. These were direct and widely reported:

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/07/24/green-leadership-challenge-shaw-opponent-speaks-out/

Compare that to ructions in the major parties where in contrast you don't get a direct comment or reason from anyone at all who might vote - It's all media speculation and ahem trusted sources.

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