Todd Muller to burn Bridges

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#2490943 25-May-2020 10:51

Technofreak:

To try and make it in to anything else in a New Zealand context is grasping at straws.

Well I did see a ute with a large red "MAGA" sticker on the back window the other day, in small letters underneath "make Ardern go away". It was a Chinese-made ute, also had anti-1080 and 5G conspiracy stickers, but didn't even have so much as a banjo in a rear window gun-rack - so I assume the owner was just some harmless local imbecile.

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#2490946 25-May-2020 11:02

Fred99:
Technofreak:

To try and make it in to anything else in a New Zealand context is grasping at straws.

Well I did see a ute with a large red "MAGA" sticker on the back window the other day, in small letters underneath "make Ardern go away". It was a Chinese-made ute, also had anti-1080 and 5G conspiracy stickers, but didn't even have so much as a banjo in a rear window gun-rack - so I assume the owner was just some harmless local imbecile.

Well many business owners I know would subscribe to that idea! Plus something about communist. I'm sure we all know someone who says such things.

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#2490958 25-May-2020 11:34

Technofreak:

He's already answered the question on Trump, he used the word "appalling"

I'd say the cap has been sitting there along with Hillary's badge for sometime , part of the furniture, pretty well unnoticed, until someone decided to make a mountain out of a molehill. I don't see anyone jumping up and down asking why he, as a right of centre MP, has a souvenir from a left wing politician in his office.

I know someone who has a copy of the current PM's "biography" in her office. Having a copy of the book doesn't make her a fan of the PM, I know for a fact she has no time for the PM. Someone seeing that book in her office may of course jump to another conclusion.

Two points here: He used the word 'appalling' specifically to characterise the style of Trump's politics, not the substance. In effect, he is not saying there is anything wrong with racism, just the way Trump expresses it. That is hardly an unqualified condemnation. Your other argument glosses over the fact that a Hilary badge has not acquired the value-laden symbolism of a MAGA cap. See below.

No doubt MAGA means exactly that to some people in the US.

If you were to ask a cross section of New Zealanders it's my bet none of them would associate MAGA in the manner Professor Omari does. New Zealanders, if they actually remember what MAGA meant, would see it as just a slogan used on a baseball cap supporting Donald Trump, nothing more nothing less. To try and make it in to anything else in a New Zealand context is grasping at straws.

When Trump first put on the cap, it was just another mindless political slogan. No problem there. When neo-nazi white racist a$$holes adopted the slogan as their own, the cap acquired a whole different significance. These days black people are deeply offended by the n-word, so deeply that no non-black person in their right mind would dare use it. I very much doubt your acquaintance would dare leave a copy of Dick Gregory's autobiography lying around for all to see. Not because of his use of the word, but because of how casual observers would perceive it.

I find your arguments in this matter specious. MAGA is not the same as a Hillary Clinton pin. You are making a false equivalence.

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Fred99

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#2490959 25-May-2020 11:39

Batman:

Well many business owners I know would subscribe to that idea! Plus something about communist. I'm sure we all know someone who says such things.

The ones who decline to accept any relief packages - or the ones screaming "communism" while on welfare?

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#2490962 25-May-2020 11:46

Rikkitic:

When Trump first put on the cap, it was just another mindless political slogan. No problem there. When neo-nazi white racist a$$holes adopted the slogan as their own, the cap acquired a whole different significance. These days black people are deeply offended by the n-word, so deeply that no non-black person in their right mind would dare use it. I very much doubt your acquaintance would dare leave a copy of Dick Gregory's autobiography lying around for all to see. Not because of his use of the word, but because of how casual observers would perceive it.

I find your arguments in this matter specious. MAGA is not the same as a Hillary Clinton pin. You are making a false equivalence.

As a casual observer who's Dick Gregory?

We're talking about the significance of MAGA when it comes to the average New Zealander. I think I'd be pretty safe in saying a Hillary badge or a MAGA cap have about the same significance as each other to the average New Zealander, that is Nil, Zilch, Nada.

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#2490972 25-May-2020 11:56

Technofreak:

As a casual observer who's Dick Gregory?

We're talking about the significance of MAGA when it comes to the average New Zealander. I think I'd be pretty safe in saying a Hillary badge or a MAGA cap have about the same significance as each other to the average New Zealander, that is Nil, Zilch, Nada.

Gregory was an American comedian but this is about his biography. Google it.

I dispute your assertion that MAGA has no significance to the average New Zealander. If that was the case, Muller's collection would not have made the news. And it isn't just the loony left who notice it. Many people are left wondering about Muller's values.

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#2490978 25-May-2020 12:00

Fred99:
Batman:

Well many business owners I know would subscribe to that idea! Plus something about communist. I'm sure we all know someone who says such things.

The ones who decline to accept any relief packages - or the ones screaming "communism" while on welfare?

Knowing what I think I know about them it's likely the latter.

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Fred99

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#2490984 25-May-2020 12:06

Technofreak:

I think I'd be pretty safe in saying a Hillary badge or a MAGA cap have about the same significance as each other to the average New Zealander, that is Nil, Zilch, Nada.

Oh - that must be why nobody is interested in the story about Muller's MAGA hat (something that I think he has adequately explained).

I'd almost be prepared to buy you a MAGA hat for free if you'd promise to wear it for a week - with a go-pro recording how "insignificant" the average NZers you come across in your travels find it to be.

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#2490994 25-May-2020 12:33

Technofreak: We're talking about the significance of MAGA when it comes to the average New Zealander.

No, we're not talking about the significance of MAGA when it comes to the average New Zealander.

We're talking about the significance of MAGA when it comes to Tod Muller, who may one day become the Prime Minister of this country.

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#2490996 25-May-2020 12:38

Rikkitic:

Technofreak:

As a casual observer who's Dick Gregory?

We're talking about the significance of MAGA when it comes to the average New Zealander. I think I'd be pretty safe in saying a Hillary badge or a MAGA cap have about the same significance as each other to the average New Zealander, that is Nil, Zilch, Nada.

Gregory was an American comedian but this is about his biography. Google it.

I dispute your assertion that MAGA has no significance to the average New Zealander. If that was the case, Muller's collection would not have made the news. And it isn't just the loony left who notice it. Many people are left wondering about Muller's values.

You missed the sarcasm/irony of my comment. If I didn't know who Dick Gregory was how could I form any opinion based on someone having a copy of his book?

Up until this story was published if an average kiwi voter (not some journo looking for a story) walked in to an office and saw the collection of items in the Todd Muller's cabinet if they said anything all all it would along the lines of hey "Whats with the collection of hats and badges? I bet not one of them would say hey that MAGA cap is a symbol of white supremacy. I don't think for one moment Todd Muller does either.

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#2491016 25-May-2020 13:12

Fred99:

I'd almost be prepared to buy you a MAGA hat for free if you'd promise to wear it for a week - with a go-pro recording how "insignificant" the average NZers you come across in your travels find it to be.

The notion that no average NZer knows/understands even some of the offensive connotations represented by the MAGA hat would only be believed by Technofreak. Even for a bunch that is not typically very well informed/world aware, I find it hard to believe that your average Kiwi hasn't seen some news coverage of the racist bile spewed by the MAGA hat wearers or seen for example the rally where some white supremacist ran over and killed a counter-protestor and all the support given to that kind of crowd by Trump and the MAGA hat wearers.

But in some people's lala land, this is all okay.

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#2491052 25-May-2020 13:52

dejadeadnz:

Fred99:

I'd almost be prepared to buy you a MAGA hat for free if you'd promise to wear it for a week - with a go-pro recording how "insignificant" the average NZers you come across in your travels find it to be.

The notion that no average NZer knows/understands even some of the offensive connotations represented by the MAGA hat would only be believed by Technofreak. Even for a bunch that is not typically very well informed/world aware, I find it hard to believe that your average Kiwi hasn't seen some news coverage of the racist bile spewed by the MAGA hat wearers or seen for example the rally where some white supremacist ran over and killed a counter-protestor and all the support given to that kind of crowd by Trump and the MAGA hat wearers.

But in some people's lala land, this is all okay.

This is starting to remind me of the holy war over the colour of hats to be worn in Fuchal.

All hail Cloister the Stupid.

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#2491056 25-May-2020 14:05

Technofreak:

You missed the sarcasm/irony of my comment. If I didn't know who Dick Gregory was how could I form any opinion based on someone having a copy of his book?

No-one has to have any idea who Dick Gregory was. It is about the title of his book. Not his intention, but how an average New Zealander (or any other person) might react upon seeing that title with no further context. The MAGA hat is similar.

Up until this story was published if an average kiwi voter (not some journo looking for a story) walked in to an office and saw the collection of items in the Todd Muller's cabinet if they said anything all all it would along the lines of hey "Whats with the collection of hats and badges? I bet not one of them would say hey that MAGA cap is a symbol of white supremacy. I don't think for one moment Todd Muller does either.

Let me put it this way: If you went to a party of someone you knew, and saw a gathering of people in white KKK robes in the garden, would you dismiss it as just dress-up or would you wonder what those people were trying to say? I also don't think for one moment that the MAGA cap says anything about Todd Muller's views on racism and I'm sure he does not see it as a symbol of white supremacy, but many people, also here in New Zealand, do see it as a symbol of Donald Trump's apparent utter disdain for civilised values, and on that basis, find it offensive. Muller should be more sensitive to that kind of thing.

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Handle9

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#2491145 25-May-2020 16:07

Rikkitic:
Technofreak:

He's already answered the question on Trump, he used the word "appalling"

I'd say the cap has been sitting there along with Hillary's badge for sometime , part of the furniture, pretty well unnoticed, until someone decided to make a mountain out of a molehill. I don't see anyone jumping up and down asking why he, as a right of centre MP, has a souvenir from a left wing politician in his office.

I know someone who has a copy of the current PM's "biography" in her office. Having a copy of the book doesn't make her a fan of the PM, I know for a fact she has no time for the PM. Someone seeing that book in her office may of course jump to another conclusion.

Two points here: He used the word 'appalling' specifically to characterise the style of Trump's politics, not the substance. In effect, he is not saying there is anything wrong with racism, just the way Trump expresses it. That is hardly an unqualified condemnation. Your other argument glosses over the fact that a Hilary badge has not acquired the value-laden symbolism of a MAGA cap. See below.

I'm sure if he'd criticised the substance of Trumps politics then you'd complain he didn't criticise his style. You've got as much chance of saying something positive about National as @networkn does about Labour. Neither of you are voting for the other side.

While Trump makes a small group lose their minds, to attack him or jump to his defense, this is nothing more than a highly amusing sideshow.

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#2491213 25-May-2020 17:23

Handle9:

While Trump makes a small group lose their minds, to attack him or jump to his defense, this is nothing more than a highly amusing sideshow.

I'm glad you are amused. I would hate to think it was for nothing.

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