NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3148449 17-Oct-2023 15:20

marmel:

You think a policy that was going to make 20% of all sheep and beef farms uneconomic as being weak?

Compared to a policy that's going to make 100% of all sheep and beef farms uneconomic in the not too distant future, yes.

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#3148450 17-Oct-2023 15:25

MikeB4: @tdgeek you should do some comparison with overseas political spectrums. Our main parties don't stray far from the centre. Social policies are not "very very" left they are prudent and socially responsible.

And @kyanar

I will backtrack on my far left comments about the Greens. Rather than review their full range of policies (which I have just skimmed through) I relied on many anti Green comments in these threads, specific to their social policies. My bad

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#3148451 17-Oct-2023 15:26

SaltyNZ:

marmel:

You think a policy that was going to make 20% of all sheep and beef farms uneconomic as being weak?

Compared to a policy that's going to make 100% of all sheep and beef farms uneconomic in the not too distant future, yes.

NZ has a very good history of innovation in the agriculture sector, which is why we can already produce agricultural produce at one of the lowest if not the lowest carbon footprint ion the world. Instead of investing in innovation the Labour/Green policy was to make 20% of sheep/beef farmers give up, despite the Paris accords clearly outlining efforts to curtail carbon should not affect food production:

b) Increasing the ability to adapt to the adverse impacts of climate change and foster climate resilience and low greenhouse gas emissions development, in a manner that does not threaten food production

It might have been better for the Green's to just come out and admit they are ideologically opposed to agriculture involving livestock full stop.

People really have no idea what that 20% reduction would mean to not only food production but also to rural communities around NZ.

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#3148458 17-Oct-2023 15:39

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/liz-gunns-new-zealand-loyal-election-results-which-electorates-gave-it-most-support/TUFSUDDCVRCYLGJ3DXZDHWGBXA/

Looks like the rivalry between former BFF's Liz Gunn and Sue Grey was quite bitter on the Coast (and a few other places) - I mention the Coast specifically as Grey was running there against Gunn's party, instead of not running and allowing the Loyal party vote to be higher.

I daresay Sue won't be acting (literally) as Liz's lawyer again anytime soon.

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#3148460 17-Oct-2023 15:40

marmel:

It might have been better for the Green's to just come out and admit they are ideologically opposed to agriculture involving livestock full stop.

They aren't. Well, I suppose vegans are over-represented in the Green Party vs. the wider population but we're not all vegans. I quite like a nice steak. It's not about putting farmers out of a job. It's about ensuring it's possible to farm at all. And that does mean I'll have less steak than I might like but it's also not like I couldn't stand to lose a kilo or two. But I digress.

This goes back to the argument about 'Why don't the Green Party just concentrate on the environment instead of all the SJW BS?'

Well, this is why. Because a 'pure green' party's attitude to those farmers would be 'f*** 'em, not our problem'.

But the Green Party is committed to making sure that nobody gets left behind. In the first instance farmers can make changes that in most cases retain their profitability whilst still reducing herd sizes. Land so marginal that cutting back on destructive intensive means the farm goes broke is not a safe career option regardless of climate change, but the Green Party wants to ensure that there is a just transition for those farmers.

Given it's all over now bar the shouting I'm not going to look up the exact document for you but if you really, actually, want to know how they intend to do it, it's all on the web site in detail.

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#3148463 17-Oct-2023 15:42

quickymart:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/liz-gunns-new-zealand-loyal-election-results-which-electorates-gave-it-most-support/TUFSUDDCVRCYLGJ3DXZDHWGBXA/

Looks like the rivalry between former BFF's Liz Gunn and Sue Grey was quite bitter on the Coast (and a few other places) - I mention the Coast specifically as Grey was running there against Gunn's party, instead of not running and allowing the Loyal party vote to be higher.

I guess with NZ Loyal's share of the vote being so low it really makes no difference anyway, even with both parties votes added together they are a long way from being in Government.

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#3148464 17-Oct-2023 15:44

marmel:

quickymart:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/liz-gunns-new-zealand-loyal-election-results-which-electorates-gave-it-most-support/TUFSUDDCVRCYLGJ3DXZDHWGBXA/

Looks like the rivalry between former BFF's Liz Gunn and Sue Grey was quite bitter on the Coast (and a few other places) - I mention the Coast specifically as Grey was running there against Gunn's party, instead of not running and allowing the Loyal party vote to be higher.

I guess with NZ Loyal's share of the vote being so low it really makes no difference anyway, even with both parties votes added together they are a long way from being in Government.

Amen to that!

Funnily enough they were saying they think they'll do really well with the special votes. Spare me.

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#3148466 17-Oct-2023 15:52

SaltyNZ:

marmel:

It might have been better for the Green's to just come out and admit they are ideologically opposed to agriculture involving livestock full stop.

They aren't. Well, I suppose vegans are over-represented in the Green Party vs. the wider population but we're not all vegans. I quite like a nice steak. It's not about putting farmers out of a job. It's about ensuring it's possible to farm at all. And that does mean I'll have less steak than I might like but it's also not like I couldn't stand to lose a kilo or two. But I digress.

This goes back to the argument about 'Why don't the Green Party just concentrate on the environment instead of all the SJW BS?'

Well, this is why. Because a 'pure green' party's attitude to those farmers would be 'f*** 'em, not our problem'.

But the Green Party is committed to making sure that nobody gets left behind. In the first instance farmers can make changes that in most cases retain their profitability whilst still reducing herd sizes. Land so marginal that cutting back on destructive intensive means the farm goes broke is not a safe career option regardless of climate change, but the Green Party wants to ensure that there is a just transition for those farmers.

Given it's all over now bar the shouting I'm not going to look up the exact document for you but if you really, actually, want to know how they intend to do it, it's all on the web site in detail.

I wouldn't trust anyone in the Green party to do anything positive for livestock farmers. One of the reasons protests kicked off down this way was because a few years ago someone in Wellington decided all spring crops in Southland/Otago had to be in the ground before the end of October, the theory being it would help soak up wintering runoff. The problem being is you simply can't plant crops in most areas in the south at that time of year because the soil temperature is far too cold, this was simply one example of someone with no agricultural knowledge at all sitting behind a desk making decisions about something they knew little about.

James Shaw was invited to come to Southland and speak to farmers that had joined together and formed a local water catchment group to improve water quality (which is working), one farmer in particular has won environmental awards for work on his own farm but Shaw wasn't interested which was shame because that is a great example of how local farmers with local knowledge can make positive changes to their own environments.

I have a bit of time for Shaw because I think he is probably the most pragmatic out of the Green MP's but in my opinion the party as a whole has very little interest or support for NZ livestock agriculture industry.

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#3148468 17-Oct-2023 15:56

quickymart:

Amen to that!

Funnily enough they were saying they think they'll do really well with the special votes. Spare me.

It was interesting to read a few comments from Pat Pilcher on 'X', he said when he worked with Gunn on The Morning Show a few years back she was a really intelligent, nice person. How does one go from that to where she is now?

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#3148476 17-Oct-2023 16:33

All the world is a stage.

Maybe Gunn was 'playing a part' on the morning show, with very good writers and researchers feeding information.
A very affable, likeable persona too, as any good salesperson knows how to switch on.

Perhaps Gunn started thinking she was as 'independently' smart as the research and scripts she was given.
Smarter...
Started doing her 'own research' in the wrong places.
Associate with more of the same thinking people.
Close mind to the mainstream science and technology.

It pays, no way back, so might as well keep going as long as money keeps flowing.
It may also explain why these parties can't combine, as then the separate funding channel wilts.
You need to cultivate your own separate group of 'buy me a coffee' etc patrons?

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#3148477 17-Oct-2023 16:34

My thoughts - after leaving RNZ in 2016, I know she setup her own public relations firm. All good, no issues there - but I think coronavirus and the lockdowns basically killed off that business.

After initially supporting the lockdowns, her support later curdled into dislike and then hatred of the government. Like most good conspiracy theorists she would have sought out others online who felt the same as her and then fell completely into the antivaxx rabbit hole. Seeing that she could get attention for doing this, she started making ridiculous statements (see https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-nz-television-presenter-liz-gunn-claims-earthquake-was-mother-natures-response-to-jacinda-arderns-covid-19-announcement/HKJ3XVM27CDVJUSZ7KRL2L5LM4/ as a prime example) and then making even more ridiculous videos, giving her the attention she had been desperately starved of since leaving the public limelight.

Given where she is currently (and some of the nasty comments she has made towards the government, particularly Ardern), I don't think there's any way back for her. She has her loyal (pardon the pun) band of anti-vaxx/anti-government followers, but as someone else pointed out there's only a limited supply of those as opposed to the general population, and eventually their fawning adoration of Gunn and all the crap she espouses will dry up - probably about the same time as her money runs out.

Also @marmel - what were Pat Pilcher's comments on Twitter? I can't see them.

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#3148731 18-Oct-2023 11:26

SaltyNZ:

marmel:

You think a policy that was going to make 20% of all sheep and beef farms uneconomic as being weak?

Compared to a policy that's going to make 100% of all sheep and beef farms uneconomic in the not too distant future, yes.

Yes. It's weak.

Farmer's got to set their own homework with He Waka Eke Noa and they still baulked at what came back.

Kicking the can down the road (again!!!) to 2030 with an added sprinkling of magical thinking about still non-existent methane inhibitors and/or GM grasses isn't the answer.

Don't really see how protecting one part of the primary industries sector (beef+lamb) is particularly helpful when another part has just taken a massive hit from a climate change intensified cyclone.

Fact remains that climate change is going to make large parts of the primary industries sector increasingly challenging due to extreme weather events, more frequent droughts and the general drying out of large parts of the country due to changing rainfall patterns.

Business as usual ain't going to cut it

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#3148743 18-Oct-2023 11:52

Beef and Lamb.
So the smartest farmers really want to handicap themselves in the most 'value added' markets.
These have strong local farm lobbies that will amplify any anti NZ sentiment over climate intransigence.

Silo themselves with low value markets that don't care.
Seeing our vulnerability due to lack of options will just ask for a discount and it will all be fine?
Though some of the live trade may also be to set themselves up with options.

Beef and Sheep are probably more at the mercy of the power of the limited channel to convert their product into cuts for the table.
That huge gap between farm gate price, export price and butcher/supermarket price.
Someone got their breakfast, is eating their lunch, and would quite like dinner.

Geography and climate is another where some areas are becoming unsuitable to farm that way, change is coming even if you do nothing.

Sheep farming in the past benefitted from flexibility of income of meat and/or wool, now its petroleum based fiber.
Petroleum, maybe there is some commonality with green message promoting natural fibre?

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#3148749 18-Oct-2023 11:57

In order to combat and prepare for whats to come farming like all sectors or Aotearoa and the rest of the world will need to change, drastically. Food production needs to move away from what currently do. We need to stop our dependence on grass feed animal products. A move to vegetable foods and insect foods should be our goal.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#3148756 18-Oct-2023 12:16

SaltyNZ:

MikeB4: I feel that Chris Hipkins will see the transfer to National/Act/? through then will step down as leader possibly early in the new year. I have no idea on a possible successor. Should he step down? No, with the possibility that the incoming government will be as stable as a bowel of jelly the Labour Party needs to give the impression of stability.

Seems unlikely they will have figured out what cost them the election in that short a period of time. The Green Party is the 3rd largest party in parliament. It's time for them to step up as the defacto Mainstream Left Party now. Labour had their day.

The last thing the Labour party and the country needs right now is a red coloured re-run of National's Bridges/Muller/Collins saga.

If we assume that the "coalition of chaos" turns out to be not all that chaotic and settles down into something stable then Labour need to figure out how to appeal to working people again (the clue's in the name: Labour).

I don't see any point in trying to out flank the Greens on the let. They can leave the middle class tofu eating EV driving socialists to the Greens in the same way that National leave all the neoliberal red in tooth and claw capitalists to ACT.

But they do need something that's both realistic in the eyes of "normal" people and more inspiring that what was presented to electorate this time round.

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