Spark is charging $150 for nothing!

Forums › Spark New Zealand (including Skinny and BigPipe) › Spark is charging $150 for nothing!

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#1324181 13-Jun-2015 19:48

airfern:
sbiddle:
High margin? You're definitely not talking about the ISP market in New Zealand.

Here we go. So they are struggling and there are so many business masochists around, who'd love to struggle and operate on break-even line, which cause so many of them do register new ISP companies every year.

Imagine when somebody doesn't want to pay full price for their internet for a few weeks...

Imagine when you fill the petrol in your car and pay for a full tank, but just a few times it fills 2/3 of the tank. So this shouldn't bother you or why does it have to? It might be still filled full on the next time you pay, so no worries.

If you think the RSP world is full of companies making inflated profits you really have no idea of the realities or margins involved. That's all I'll say of the matter. The sale of Orcon twice and even Orcon admitting it took in excess of 2 years to make profit on a EUBA customer is all the proof I need to present. If you don't believe me that's fine - you can live in your own fantasty world and feel hard done by each month if you feel you're being ripped off.

Why are new RSPs entering the market? In some cases because they're small players simply reselling wholesale services who think they can make a quick buck. The fact there are now far fewer RSPs in NZ than there were 5 years ago is the proof that many can't make money so they simply sell.

Your petrol analogy makes no sense. Copper is a best effort service and it's fully explained why speeds will vary on copper. Buying petrol has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Anyway I'm out of this debate. Good luck trying to resolve your problem, I would have helped and offered you plenty of advice on why sync rates would vary and some very likely causes but I'm not interested now.

Sideface

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#1324195 13-Jun-2015 20:25

airfern: Sideface, not really a logistical nightmare.

There are about 720 hours in one month, so your service costs ~0.14c per hour for 100Mbps and ~0.11c per hour for 80Mbps.
There are 60 out of 720 hours of downgraded service, so 10% would come down to ~0.014c per hour for 10Mbps.
Your fair service charge would be either 60x0.014 + (720-60)x0.14 = $93.24 for 100Mpbs or 60x0.014 + (720-60)x0.11 = $73.44 for 80Mbps.

Problem:

Who would monitor the customer's download speeds?
It would have to be a neutral third party.
Consumers cannot do it accurately, and ISPs have better things to do.

My connection is monitored by TrueNet, who have provided me (as an unpaid volunteer) with a MikroTik router modified to serve as a speed-testing probe. This probe is attached to my router. My upload and download speeds are tested every hour, 24/7, and sent back to TrueNet where the results are analyzed, and are available to me in graphical format.

To state the obvious, 99.9% of internet users are not monitored in this way, and (understandably) would not wish to be.

A logistical nightmare - even before you start to consider the complexities of the required billing systems.

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#1324275 13-Jun-2015 22:36

Rikkitic: When you buy or sign up for anything, you agree to the terms and conditions of the seller. I see no reason why these could not be modified in specific cases to include a performance clause. Part of the clause would include definitions, agreed to by both parties, of what constitutes inferior, adequate, and superior performance, each of which would be charged at a different rate. This gives the provider a strong incentive to do better than just meet minimum legal requirements and it compensates the customer if the service is below par, but not bad enough to justify terminating the contract. Why not? This could be a major marketing tool for ambitious companies seeking to attract new business.

You can already buy Internet that isn't best efforts and comes with a decent CIR so you know exactly what you are getting is what you pay for.
But don't expect it to be for sub $200.. probably start at around $500 -1k.
You have best efforts Internet. If you want guaranteed Internet be prepared to pay for it.

quickymart

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#1324281 13-Jun-2015 22:53

^ this. And what sbiddle and Sideface said too. Linking what you pay to the service provided is not feasible. If you think it is, go ahead and set up such a system and try selling your services to the ISP's/RSP's. I don't think you'll get very far. As to the petrol analogy, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Jase2985

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#1324320 14-Jun-2015 08:36

How about we go back on topic here? maybe start another thread for the variable internet pricing?

airfern:I told them: "Please, check the link and do whatever is required to convert the ADSL speed back to the previous state, as I can validate, that nothing was changed in the house wiring, modem, phones, etc".

How do you think they check stuff to get it back to what you used to have? sparks hardware doesnt control the speed your internet is delivered, chorus's does, so to check the link they have to send a technician out to your exchange/cabinet to check. which given you have been given a $150 change they have, and they found nothing adverse with your line.

There are many things that influence line speed, and noise floor is one that has been previously mentioned, someone else down the road might have an issue thats causing your line to drop its sync speed, or it could be one of 10's of other things, all not realted to your line. how do you test for that? simple you cant.

is your ADSL above the regulated minimum and in the up to 24mbps catogory, yes it is, is there much else you can do, no there isnt

pay your $150 and move on to worrying about other things

tdgeek

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#1324359 14-Jun-2015 09:49

Rikkitic: As long as we are going off-topic, I do like the idea of variable payments according to the level of service. It seems to me like the balance of power is often tilted in favour of service providers and consumers have little redress unless the service failure is overwhelming and persistent. Why shouldn't a customer be able to say the service is only a fraction of what I contracted for so I am entitled to pay a corresponding fraction of the fee? I appreciate the practical difficulties of this but that does not necessarily preclude some kind of intermediate solution. I am not commenting on OP's specific complaint, just raising a point of principle.

Its an interesting point.

Road charges we pay in car rego. What about those who drive more on bad roads and others on good roads?
Pay TV. When we can't find much to watch this month?
When I had to wait 20 minutes at KFC?

Interesting point but its far easier and far cheaper to price a service on a set metric, rather than introduce so many variables. And hw many of these variables are the providers cause or the network cause or the customers cause? A nightmare in reality.

Say there was a huge event online. The speed drops for every user as its being hammered, but while the internet usage is very high (Well done RSP's and network providers) they will pay in terms of lower rates as the consumer speed slowed.

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airfern

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#1324412 14-Jun-2015 13:08

Jase2985:
How do you think they check stuff to get it back to what you used to have? sparks hardware doesnt control the speed your internet is delivered, chorus's does, so to check the link they have to send a technician out to your exchange/cabinet to check. which given you have been given a $150 change they have, and they found nothing adverse with your line.
pay your $150 and move on to worrying about other things

Would you be fine to pay it, if they say "The link check up costed $300", still happy to pay? "$500" - still paying? "$1000" - just pay and move on, right?
Wondering on how far you're ready to go with paying for whatever you've been told to pay for.

tdgeek:
Road charges we pay in car rego. What about those who drive more on bad roads and others on good roads?
Pay TV. When we can't find much to watch this month?
When I had to wait 20 minutes at KFC?

The drivers on bad roads can either try to call roads maintaining organization and ask to fix it, or they just leave the place and move on to another city/country.
Same for TV, can't find much on local packages? - Move on to better or more attractive services. That's how Sky losing a lot of customers to Netflix, Quickflix, Lightbox, Neon...
Same for 20 minutes at KFC - just move on to BK,MC or whoever serves faster.
Same for Spark - leaving to another ISP now, because I'd like to pay for a working service and not to be involved into additional costs of delivery/maintenance/testing, etc.

tdgeek

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#1324422 14-Jun-2015 13:17

airfern:
Jase2985:
How do you think they check stuff to get it back to what you used to have? sparks hardware doesnt control the speed your internet is delivered, chorus's does, so to check the link they have to send a technician out to your exchange/cabinet to check. which given you have been given a $150 change they have, and they found nothing adverse with your line.
pay your $150 and move on to worrying about other things

Would you be fine to pay it, if they say "The link check up costed $300", still happy to pay? "$500" - still paying? "$1000" - just pay and move on, right?
Wondering on how far you're ready to go with paying for whatever you've been told to pay for.

tdgeek:
Road charges we pay in car rego. What about those who drive more on bad roads and others on good roads?
Pay TV. When we can't find much to watch this month?
When I had to wait 20 minutes at KFC?

The drivers on bad roads can either try to call roads maintaining organization and ask to fix it, or they just leave the place and move on to another city/country.
Same for TV, can't find much on local packages? - Move on to better or more attractive services. That's how Sky losing a lot of customers to Netflix, Quickflix, Lightbox, Neon...
Same for 20 minutes at KFC - just move on to BK,MC or whoever serves faster.
Same for Spark - leaving to another ISP now, because I'd like to pay for a working service and not to be involved into additional costs of delivery/maintenance/testing, etc.

They already fix roads, I can't expect them to prioritise me
Who said that this month with not much to interest me will take me to a service that will rectify that?
Want KFC,not another
Re Spark, I work there so I won't comment, but read above.

sbiddle

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#1324424 14-Jun-2015 13:19

airfern:Same for Spark - leaving to another ISP now, because I'd like to pay for a working service and not to be involved into additional costs of delivery/maintenance/testing, etc.

Your DSL speed will not change, and your $150 fee would have still applied no matter what ISP you were with as the ISP is simply passing on the Chorus charges for a FNF.

You can move because it may make you feel good, but it doesn't change any of the facts of your case. It certainly won't change your performance, or exactly the same thing happening again and you being charged.

Sideface

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#1324426 14-Jun-2015 13:25

airfern: ... leaving to another ISP now, because I'd like to pay for a working service and not to be involved into additional costs of delivery/maintenance/testing, etc.

Before you jump ship (for no particular reason) ...

Have a look at the TrueNet April 2015 Urban Broadband Report (#40) - which shows Snap to be one of the better ADSL providers ...

(click to enlarge)

Snap is represented by the orange line.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not on ADSL, and I am not with Snap.

Sideface

airfern

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#1324431 14-Jun-2015 13:40

Thanks for your comments guys, you have a deep technical expertise, but I still didn't get the personal answers for very simple questions from above: What would you personally do in this case?
Would you be fine to pay it, if they say "The link check up costed $300", still happy to pay? "$500" - still paying? "$1000" - just pay and move on, right?

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#1324438 14-Jun-2015 13:54

The customer would've been told there is a no fault found fee and the customer would need to agree before a tech was sent. If this wasn't done in your case feel free to ask them to pull your tapes and complain to the TDR.

Talkiet

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#1324441 14-Jun-2015 13:59

Rikkitic: When you buy or sign up for anything, you agree to the terms and conditions of the seller. I see no reason why these could not be modified in specific cases to include a performance clause. Part of the clause would include definitions, agreed to by both parties, of what constitutes inferior, adequate, and superior performance, each of which would be charged at a different rate. This gives the provider a strong incentive to do better than just meet minimum legal requirements and it compensates the customer if the service is below par, but not bad enough to justify terminating the contract. Why not? This could be a major marketing tool for ambitious companies seeking to attract new business.

You can get these today. They are called SLAs (Service Level Agreements) and they apply to many higher grade connections.

Unfortunately they don't apply to consumer grade connections in the same way. Do you want to pay for the higher grade service? Really?

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

sbiddle

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#1324447 14-Jun-2015 14:33

airfern: Thanks for your comments guys, you have a deep technical expertise, but I still didn't get the personal answers for very simple questions from above: What would you personally do in this case?
Would you be fine to pay it, if they say "The link check up costed $300", still happy to pay? "$500" - still paying? "$1000" - just pay and move on, right?

This situation is nowhere as complex as you're trying to make it out to be

You would have been clearly told the cost by Spark to call out a technician if a fault was found. If Spark didn't tell you this then that's another issue entirely, and as suggested above you would have a right to complain to Spark about this.

The $150 FNF is a fixed fee. Every ISP will charge this to a customer because they're charged it by Chorus.

If a fault was found external on the Chorus network you would not pay to have it repaired.

If a fault was found within your property (the most common location for xDSL related issues) as the internal wiring is the property of the home owner, a fee would be charged to repair this UNLESS you have wiring maintenance which will cover this cost.

airfern

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#1324461 14-Jun-2015 14:54

sbiddle, it's so funny, you're still trying to explain the technical side of the issue and absolutely ignoring the simple question on what would be your personal response to ISP downgraded service or its further actions in any similar scenario :)

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