[WXC/VFX] VFX over IPStar satellite revisited

Forums › One New Zealand (including Vodafone, WxC, Farmside) › [WXC/VFX] VFX over IPStar satellite revisited

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#15757 6-Sep-2007 21:59

I posted about this last February, worked with Phil a bit to try to get the issues resolved, but pretty much gave up on trying to get the phone to work any better than barely good enough so I don't have to spend a fortune on cell phone calls. Where we left it was that Phil identified the problem as being jitter leading to lost packets. My reading showed that is pretty inherent in satellite systems and that a possible solution with IPSTAR involved turning on something called CBR (Committed Bit Rate), which is a kind of dedicated bandwidth. I asked my ISP, ICONZ, if I could have 16kbps of CBR bandwidth (not even being sure if phrasing the request that way makes sense) and they talked to IPSTAR and did something like that. I never got to talk to a technically knowledgeable person so I am still not sure exactly what they did.

The result was that my poor outgoing voice (people could not understand me) with ok incoming turned into perfect outgoing voice with sporadically lousy incoming. Lately that has gotten worse, with often too much breakup for me to understand whoever I am talking to. So I'm motivated to try some more.

This time I found someone at IPSTAR support who seems to know about VOIP. The news is not great for me. He said that the solution actually is a matter of enabling CBR, but that can be set in the satellite modem only to enable it in the outgoing direction. To get CBR incoming, the ICONZ has to enable it at the IPSTAR Gateway. He also said that ISP's who offer VOIP over IPSTAR satellite host the VOIP server at the IPSTAR Gateway. What I don't know yet is if it has to be that way or if that just helps reduce latency and jitter.

Phil, does this information provide any insight into how we can get VFX to run acceptably over IPSTAR? Is putting a server at an ISP location in order to be able to provide service for all of their IPSTAR customers something that WorldXchange might consider doing?

Also, even though ICONZ said that they configured something that I interpreted as being CBR, and something certainly did change in my call quality at the time, now I am less certain that my satellite modem is configured for it. The IPSTAR support person said that the configuration includes the ip address of the VOIP server that is being used. Phil, what is the address of the VOIP server that I am talking to? I would like to make sure that CBR really is configured for the outgoing direction.

Thanks,

-- sidney

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WorldxChange

#85684 7-Sep-2007 05:46

Hi Sidney,

The IP address for the server will be 58.28.20.150, at this stage we haven't considered putting in a the gateway.
CBR or CIR (Committed Information Rate) is just a way of reserving bandwidth so it is always available for the Phone service this is what the the enhanced UBA DSL products that are coming from Telecom will be doing as well.

We are due very shortly to have a IPStar connection put in here so we can conduct some testing but generally so far the feedback is that so far IPStar latency / Jitter characteristics is not that good for a VOIP service, but that is based on feedback only and not something we have tested ourselves.

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#85691 7-Sep-2007 08:28

maverick: generally so far the feedback is that so far IPStar latency / Jitter characteristics is not that good for a VOIP service, but that is based on feedback only and not something we have tested ourselves.

My experience is that when jitter is not a problem that the latency by itself is not a problem at all. Any jitter problem is exacerbated by the latency, resulting in conversation being impossible. When the voice doesn't break up, pure latency delay stays below conscious notice.

The new information that I have is that there are people who are successfully using VOIP over IPSTAR. One of my neighbours has IPSTAR through Tuaropaki Communications (inzonecorp.co.nz) and VOIP through them that seems to work for him. I just found that out and I'll try to contact them to see what they have to say. Wireless Nation are offering bundled VOIP with IPSTAR and are claiming in a press release "Wireless Nation will become the first to offer broadband phone services officially within IPStar group". I would consider buying out my remaining contract with ICONZ and switching to Wireless Nation, especially since they offer a higher speed plan at half the price with a much smaller contract lockin compared to ICONZ, but I can't get them to even return my sales inquiry phone calls and emails. If they achieve their low price by being so automated that they can't even handle returning a sales call I shudder to think what dealing with tech support would be like.

I remain optimistic that VOIP service over IPSTAR can be acceptable. What I don't know is if I can get that with my current providers. It would not be good for your business if the only working solutions involved getting the VOIP service as part of a bundle from IPSTAR resellers who host their own servers at their gateway.

Supposedly ICONZ enabled CBR or CIR for me when I asked them to try that, but I see now that it would require configuring it on my modem entering your server address to be complete. One of the frustrating aspects about dealing with ICONZ is that I get to talk with a very friendly helpful-appearing sales/customer service manager type who absolutely insulates me from anyone who can directly answer questions of a technical nature. So I don't really know exactly what they did at their end. I can't explain why, if they did enable CBR at their gateway and not on my modem, why I now get perfect outgoing voice and horrible incoming. I would think that it would be the exact opposite.

Thanks for the server IP address. Tonight or tomorrow I'll try configuring CBR on my modem and see what difference it makes.

-- sidney

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#85714 7-Sep-2007 10:31

maverick: The IP address for the server will be 58.28.20.150

I was able to configure it this morning after all. Should that be UDP, TCP, or both? Since I wasn't sure I went ahead and set both.

As I feared, it hasn't made any difference. Outgoing voice quality was already perfect, and I didn't see how the CBR setting on the modem could make any difference to the incoming voice quality.

Phil, would it be possible to run some tests to get stats about my connection with the current setup? It should be different from what we saw last February, and maybe you'll see something that will hint as to what to do next.

Thanks,

-- sidney

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#85801 7-Sep-2007 19:29

Followup: An IPSTAR support person suggested that I have ICONZ request of IPSTAR that "a CBR be created for my terminal". That's in addition to me enabling CBR to the VFX server ip address in the configuration on the IPSTAR modem.

I have modified the configuration in my modem and opened a ticket with ICONZ support with that request.

I'll report back with the results once I have any.

-- sidney

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#86730 15-Sep-2007 01:14

Status update and a temporary workaround

I was told the most bizarre response from IPSTAR to ICONZ's request to create a CBR on my terminal. IPSTAR said that they cannot enable CBR on any terminal for about three or four weeks "due to some legal matters." I have no idea what that means.

However, my partner came up with a brilliant temporary workaround to try that has been working perfectly.

Remember, at this point outgoing voice quality is perfect but incoming is very bad at times. In general, local calls (Auckland) are fine, calls farther in New Zealand, especially South Island the incoming sound are poor, and anything international usually has unusable incoming sound.

The workaround was to buy a calling card (we used ChiTel) that has an Auckland local access number. When we use the ChiTel card over VFX the results are as good as with any call to an Auckland number, essentially perfect voice quality in both directions. Our cost is roughly the same, since to VFX it is a free local call and ChiTel's international rates are comparable to those of VFX.

My guess about how it works is that the ChiTel endpoint in Auckland acts as a buffer for any jitter effect on the international ip connection.

Phil, perhaps this result will give you or your tech people an idea about how you can get your equipment to produce a similar effect.

The workaround does not help us with international calls made to us, but for now we can call people back.

I'll update this thread again when IPSTAR enables CBR on our terminal or if more than four weeks passes without anything happening.

maverick

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WorldxChange

#86782 15-Sep-2007 15:07

We have an IPStar connection being connected on Monday or Tuesday, initial talks with the people supplying the connection do confirm that setting the CBR should greatly improve Voice Quality, will fully confirm this when testing starts , There comments were that this setup is only a 2 minute job .

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#86903 17-Sep-2007 17:13

Whatever those "legal matters" were with IPSTAR, they seem to have cleared up much faster than the 3 to 4 weeks they said. I've been informed that they are ready to enable CBR once they get my go-ahead, which I have just sent.

I'll post the results once I have some.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

maverick

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WorldxChange

#86907 17-Sep-2007 17:45

Have done the first lot of tests with an IPStar connection that was installed this afternoon, this circuit had CBR enabled on it and the Call quality was excellent over several calls, yet to test without CBR enabled

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#87172 19-Sep-2007 14:31

CBR has been enabled. They asked me for the "VOIP GW IP address" and I told them 58.28.20.150

There was no improvement :-(

Phil, I think my next step has to be you looking at the statistics on my line.

Just to make sure about your results, have you tested with international calls? I'm not having a problem now with calls to/from 09 or 027 numbers (haven't tried other national or mobile numbers recently) but calls to the US and Australia are not usable.

Here is my current situation in detail:

Outgoing voice is fine on all calls. Incoming is also fine on calls to/from Auckland land lines and to/from mobile phones.

Incoming is unusably choppy in international calls we have tried, to US and Australia. We cannot use the VOIP for direct international calls because of that.

There is another problem symptom that might be relevant: On any call, including the local calls that sound ok, the person on the other end hears periodic DTMF beeps that sound like I'm accidentally pressing buttons on my phone. The beeps happen every few minutes, but at very irregular intervals. This is definitely not a result of pushing the buttons and it happens using different telephones, so it can't be a problem with the telephone itself. This is a big problem because the beeps seem to signal some voice mail systems to stop recording before we can finish leaving a message. When I told this to ICONZ, here is the reply I got, presumably from IPSTAR passed on to me via ICONZ:

"This is to do with the VOIP server, so you will need to contact your VOIP provider with this problem. IPSTAR just prioritize packets so if the local calls are ok it means the packets are being prioritized."

Help?

-- sidney

maverick

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WorldxChange

#87197 19-Sep-2007 17:40

Hi Sidney,

Well first things I think there is no improvement as I don't believe anything has changed , 
these are the stats from just 2 of your calls one international and one national , they all have packet loss !!!, 
now from the limited testing we have done so far with IPStar connection we have much better results than this,

Listed below are your 2 calls and 2 from mine which I might add I made first thing this morning before you 
posted your results 


Timestamp     : 12:18:03.954 2007-09-19
Direction     : RX
Remote IP/Port: xxx.xxx140.182
Local IP/Port : xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Transport     : UDP
----------------------------------------
BYE sip:xxxxxxxx80583@as.wxcnz.net;maddr=xxx.xxx;transport=UDP SIP/2.0
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP xxx.140.182:8062;branch=z9hG4bK-5e29d210
From: 0xxxxx139 <sip:xxxx139@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=44d43fd5420f529bo0
To: <sip:xxxxxxx80583@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=96141c3a-13c4-46f06a98-287f2498-7b9d8d0c
Call-ID: 1ffa2bdd-669f1633@xxx.xxx.140.182
CSeq: 103 BYE
Max-Forwards: 70
User-Agent: Linksys/SPA2102-5.1.6
P-RTP-Stat: PS=1351,OS=27020,PR=375,OR=7402,PL=326,JI=1,LA=0,DU=7,EN=G729a,DE=G729a
Content-Length: 0


Timestamp     : 15:47:14.699 2007-09-19
Direction     : RX
Remote IP/Port: xxx.xxx.140.182/8062
Local IP/Port : 58.28.20.150/8060
Transport     : UDP
----------------------------------------
BYE sip:xxxx026@as.wxcnz.net:;maddr=xxxx.xxx;transport=UDP SIP/2.0
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP xxx.xxx.140.182:branch=z9hG4bK-347e0d41
From: 0xxxx139 <sip:xxxxxx139@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=457229ac2f6acb0do0
To: <sip:xxx026@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=96141c3a-13c4-46f09b7c-293e18d3-6632b080
Call-ID: be571958-15fcbf51@xxx.xxx.140.182
CSeq: 103 BYE
Max-Forwards: 70
User-Agent: Linksys/SPA2102-5.1.6
P-RTP-Stat: PS=3131,OS=500960,PR=3028,OR=484480,PL=122,JI=7,LA=0,DU=54,EN=G711u,DE=G711u
Content-Length: 0

Now lets take a look at my IPstar connection with CIR / CBR applied look at the Packet Loss stats nothing ,
no packet loss at all 

-----------------------------------------
Timestamp     : 08:21:01.788 2007-09-19
Direction     : RX
Remote IP/Port: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
Local IP/Port : xxxxxxx/
Transport     : UDP
----------------------------------------
SIP/2.0 200 OK
To: 001xxxxx04<sip:001xxxxxx04@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=b0cb0cd12b7697ffo0
From: <sip:xxxx1352@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=96141c3a-13c4-46f032e8-27a5aadd-4a32e7da
Call-ID: 5e4d62b9-d8d1fb37@192.168.5.11
CSeq: 1 BYE
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP xxxx.xxx.20.150:8060;branch=z9hG4bK-a65d5-46f0332c-27a6b386-58dfa5e1
Server: WRTP54G-3.1.16.0608s
P-RTP-Stat: PS=3291,OS=105302,PR=3248,OR=103936,PL=0,JI=16,LA=0,DU=54,EN=G729a,DE=G729a
Content-Length: 0 


Timestamp     : 06:17:53.669 2007-09-19
Direction     : RX
Remote IP/Port: xxx.xxx.94.106/8060
Local IP/Port : 
Transport     : UDP
----------------------------------------
BYE sip:021xxxxx@as.wxcnz.net:8060;maddr=xxxxxxx;transport=UDP SIP/2.0
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP 192.168.5.11:8060;branch=z9hG4bK-7de0b876
From: 09xxxxx04 <sip:9xxxxxx04@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=113b0d8b70e87998o0
To: <sip:021306333@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=96141c3a-13c4-46f0163b-2735a90b-d39c3be
Call-ID: 725196c7-4353218c@192.168.5.11
CSeq: 103 BYE
Max-Forwards: 70
User-Agent: WRTP54G-3.1.16.0608s
P-RTP-Stat: PS=857,OS=147204,PR=3814,OR=140008,PL=0,JI=10,LA=0,DU=85,EN=G711u,DE=G711u
Content-Length: 0



Now at this stage Sidney it is easy to say blame the other guy and you and everybody here should know that I am
not into a blame game I just want  to help customers, but from what I see here in all your stats leads me to believe 
that there is no CIR applied to your setup, I am doing the same calls from my setup and I don't have any loss so I 
can only speculate  based on the stats I see , so either the CBR is not applied correctly or the setup on your SPA2102
is bad , are you plugging it directly into your IPStar connection or is it sitting behind another router, if its behind a router
plug it in directly with DHCP enabled on the WAN side and see if any improvement. but bottom line is Packet loss on all 
calls will be causing you problems International or National calling is really irrelevant at this stage.

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#87204 19-Sep-2007 18:11

Phil,

I don't for a moment believe that the problem is at your end. I quoted the message from IPSTAR via ICONZ only to say that I need your help to find out what I need to tell them to change to get this fixed because clearly they are not going to track it down for me.

The packet loss stats that you measured should help. I can report to ICONZ that you can see poor performance on the network for both local and international calls, and it was only an artifact that the result sounds good enough on the local calls.

The SPA2102 is plugged directly into the modem. When I first got IPSTAR I had a single static IP address for it and I had the modem set up to serve DHCP. The SPA2102 got it's WAN ip address from the modem's DHCP server, and it was 192.168.xx.xx. Six or seven months ago when we were dealing with this I read some things about CIR and CBR, enough to know that I might need it, but not enough to know what to ask for. I asked ICONZ about "getting some dedicated bandwidth for CIR or CBR" asking them to ask IPSTAR for details about it in relation to VOIP. The result was that they changed me from having a single static IP address to a /30 subnet, so that I had to disable NAT and DHCP server on the modem, gave the modem an ip address of xx.xx.140.81 and the SPA-2102 WAN side a static ip address of xx.xx.140.82. The rest of my network gets DHCP and NAT from the LAN side of the SPA2102.

Are you able to check the settings of my SPA-2102?

Do you have any other suggestions of what I can look at or try in addition to reporting the packet loss to ICONZ?

-- sidney

maverick

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WorldxChange

#87208 19-Sep-2007 18:15

Best bet is to pass that info on first Sidney, the packet loss on even your national calls tells me that there is global issue with that link, My connection does not have those issues, I will however test tomorrow with a spa2102 directly as well

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

sidney

81 posts

Master Geek

#87217 19-Sep-2007 18:37

I sent an email to the ICONZ support person with the stats you posted showing the packet loss that I get and the 0 packet loss that you get, and asking them to ask IPSTAR to check that CIR/CBR is setup correctly and to investigate the cause of the packet loss.

I'll post when I get a response, and in the meantime please let me know if you notice or think of anything that can help.

Thanks,

-- sidney

maverick

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WorldxChange

#87291 20-Sep-2007 06:07


Did a couple of tests this morning with a SPA2102 connected directly and I used the higher Bandwidth Codec G711 
which doesn't handle latency or jitter that well and absolutely perfect results reported by the SPA2102 on a 13 minute call, 
I also sent a couple of Faxes as well and they also worked, so I am pretty convinced that if you have the the same setup as
the connection I have you should not be seeing any packet loss. 

Timestamp     : 05:52:22.195 2007-09-20
Direction     : RX
Remote IP/Port:xxx.xxx.94.106
Local IP/Port : 
Transport     : UDP
----------------------------------------
SIP/2.0 200 OK
To: 099xxxx71;tag=a2785dace0ea9dc7o0
From: ;tag=96141c3a-13c4-46f15ebd-2c38a83c-2aef9ca4
Call-ID: 5af26350-a69db473@192.168.5.12
CSeq: 2 BYE
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP xxxxxxxx;branch=z9hG4bK-c8ca3-46f161d5-2c44b8f6-22e52168
Server: Linksys/SPA2102-5.1.9
P-RTP-Stat: PS=39428,OS=6308480,PR=39387,OR=6301920,PL=0,JI=9,LA=0,DU=782,EN=G711u,DE=G711u
Content-Length: 0


Updated:
ran a call for 1 hour 1 minute and here are the results...this is pretty impressive results on a sat service 
not a single packet lost in a One Hour call

 
Timestamp     : 07:14:09.306 2007-09-20
Direction     : RX
Remote IP/Port: xxx.xxx.94.106/
Local IP/Port : 
Transport     : UDP
----------------------------------------
BYE sip:93xxxx20@as.wxcnz.net:;maddr=xxxxxxx;transport=UDP SIP/2.0
Via: SIP/2.0/UDP 192.168.5.11:8060;branch=z9hG4bK-4a922e56
From: 099xxxx04 <sip:99xxxxx04@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=de0319a53550071eo0
To: <sip:93xxxxx20@as.wxcnz.net>;tag=96141c3a-13c4-46f166a4-2c578377-7e448499
Call-ID: bc72e571-cfe7cdc2@192.168.5.11
CSeq: 103 BYE
Max-Forwards: 70
User-Agent: WRTP54G-3.1.16.0608s
P-RTP-Stat: PS=183683,OS=5877856,PR=183630,OR=5876160,PL=0,JI=16,LA=0,DU=3664,EN=G729a,DE=G729a
Content-Length: 0

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

TinyTim

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#87316 20-Sep-2007 09:26

sidney: CBR has been enabled. They asked me for the "VOIP GW IP address" and I told them 58.28.20.150

There was no improvement :-

Sidney, I'm not an expert, but is 16kb/s CBR enough for VoIP?

Once you have this sorted out would be interested to hear your opinion on the quality of calls with both parties on satellite.

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