What could/should NZ do about the Kiwi detainees.

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#1427445 13-Nov-2015 11:21

MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.

The relevant rule in the character test:

You will not pass the character test if:
...
you are or have been a member of a group or organisation, or had or have an association with a person, group or organisation that the Minister reasonably suspects of being involved in criminal conduct

The photo of him in the SMH article wearing a Rebels tshirt and smoking a what looks like a joint probably doesn't help his case.

DizzyD

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#1427447 13-Nov-2015 11:22

MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.

Different topic completely.

wellygary

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#1427454 13-Nov-2015 11:27

MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter, the Australian Legislation does not require a criminal conviction to be tossed out, just that you fail to meet a "character" test,

You fail is you have

substantial criminal record
conviction for immigration detention offences
association with persons suspected of engaging in criminal conduct
past and present criminal or general conduct
significant risk of particular types of future conduct.

He will have been pinged on the assocations clause,

Sure its a hard line, but its up to each country to make their own rules..... The US still get very upset about "Moral turpitude" and aiding Nazis,

meesham

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#1427457 13-Nov-2015 11:31

wellygary:
Yeah, but it doesn't matter, the Australian Legislation does not require a criminal conviction to be tossed out, just that you fail to meet a "character" test,

New Zealand also have a similar test which doesn't require you to have actually committed a crime:

Your expression of interest cannot be selected or your visa application approved if you:

are a person who the Minister has reason to believe:
- is likely to commit an offence in New Zealand that is punishable by imprisonment; or
- is, or is likely to be, a threat or risk to security; or
- is, or is likely to be, a threat or risk to public order; or
- is, or is likely to be, a threat or risk to the public interest; or
- is a member of a terrorist entity designated under the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002.

http://glossary.immigration.govt.nz/Characterrequirements.htm

MikeB4

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#1427458 13-Nov-2015 11:32

DizzyD:
MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.

Different topic completely.

not really he is a detainee

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

vexxxboy

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#1427461 13-Nov-2015 11:40

MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.

i can guarantee that he might not have a criminal record but i bet the Australian security agency's have a file and info on him that say he is not a upstanding citizen and he is a member of a major criminal gang.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

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MikeB4

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#1427463 13-Nov-2015 11:49

vexxxboy:
MikeB4: If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.

i can guarantee that he might not have a criminal record but i bet the Australian security agency's have a file and info on him that say he is not a upstanding citizen and he is a member of a major criminal gang.

That could be the case, not sure you can guarantee it though. Like I said earlier there maybe more to the story but it is a concern.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

gzt

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#1427505 13-Nov-2015 12:33

There are 200 kiwis in that place. The NZ government has a responsibility to respond to those if assistance is requested.

A prison camp run by Serco on an island? What could possibly go wrong.

In the circumstances the govt should have a lot more information. The fact it does not is a failure.

shk292

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#1427510 13-Nov-2015 12:38

I just can't see what the opposition hopes to achieve by backing these people. They're criminals, they're being treated in accordance with the law of Australia, and they're free to leave at any time to return to their country of citizenship. Oh and now, probably at the encouragement of a Labour MP, some of them have started a riot, caused extensive criminal damage and are likely to go back to prison as a result.

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#1427536 13-Nov-2015 13:03

Government and opposition aside there are 200 people there.

Rikkitic

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#1427546 13-Nov-2015 13:35

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that regardless of the crimes (some of) these people may have committed, they have Done Their Time. In the good old days, when democracies and justice and fair play still existed, the idea was that people who had served their sentences were supposed to be given a fresh start and a second chance. What is happening in Australia, unbelievably, is that people who have already completed their sentences are being imprisoned a second time with no semblance of due process. Even Peter Dunne thinks this is wrong.

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meesham

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#1427550 13-Nov-2015 13:45

Rikkitic: What everyone seems to be forgetting is that regardless of the crimes (some of) these people may have committed, they have Done Their Time. In the good old days, when democracies and justice and fair play still existed, the idea was that people who had served their sentences were supposed to be given a fresh start and a second chance. What is happening in Australia, unbelievably, is that people who have already completed their sentences are being imprisoned a second time with no semblance of due process. Even Peter Dunne thinks this is wrong.

This is nothing new, and almost every country has restrictions on granting visas to people with a criminal record. While you're meant to get a "fresh start" in the country where you're a citizen having that criminal record is going to follow you. In addition to the exclusions I listed in a previous post you'll also be rejected entry into NZ for the following:

have been convicted of an offence for which you were sentenced to five years imprisonment or more
in the last ten years, have been convicted of an offence for which you were sentenced to 12 months imprisonment or more

Not surprisingly the USA are one of the most strict when it comes to this, any criminal record (eg drink driving) means you can't use the Visa Waiver Program and have to apply for a special visa which they might then grant you.

scuwp

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#1427566 13-Nov-2015 14:13

Rikkitic: What everyone seems to be forgetting is that regardless of the crimes (some of) these people may have committed, they have Done Their Time. In the good old days, when democracies and justice and fair play still existed, the idea was that people who had served their sentences were supposed to be given a fresh start and a second chance. What is happening in Australia, unbelievably, is that people who have already completed their sentences are being imprisoned a second time with no semblance of due process. Even Peter Dunne thinks this is wrong.

My understanding is they are only being detained because they refuse to leave and are appealing that decision. They are free to leave at anytime and return to NZ.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

floydbloke

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#1427568 13-Nov-2015 14:19

shk292: I just can't see what the opposition hopes to achieve by backing these people....

I'm not convinced that the opposition does truly back them, it's probably more a case of politicising the whole matter to its maximum extent to try and make the government look bad.

Sometimes I use big words I don't always fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

Rikkitic

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#1427573 13-Nov-2015 14:22

Points noted but it has also been pointed out many times that at least some of these people have spent virtually their whole lives in Australia and their families and support systems are there. Dumping them somewhere else without any links is akin to being punished twice for the same mistake. For what it's worth (not much, I'm sure) I think the Australians are being absolutely feral about this and our spineless PM isn't much better.

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