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225 posts

Master Geek


# 185184 12-Nov-2015 21:36
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There is are fair amount of political grandstanding and partisan vitriol on both sides of this topic in other forums and I was hoping to avoid that here although that may be unavoidable. I just wanted to ask a question that I haven't really covered in the media although I'm happy to get links to info if I have missed it.

If NZ did decide to officially take issue with Aussie handling of the New Zealand citizens deportations what avenues would be available to us and what are the most likely to influence the Aussie politicians and/or public opinion?

Is there international legal possibilities or are Australia on relatively firm legal ground being able to deport non-citizens providing they give suitable due process?

Would some sort of UN objection be possible, or given our relatively close diplomatic ties would some sort of direct delegation be better received providing we could agree on the makeup of one?

Is anything likely to have any effect given how the Aussies seem to be digging their heels in on other issues like asylum seekers?


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  # 1427243 12-Nov-2015 21:44
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I'd say that we have no leg to stand on.

The simple response if we moan too much will be the cancellation of the entire special visa program.

It should be abundantly clear by now that Australia does not really want our citizens: look at how much more generous we are to theirs here than vice versa. 





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  # 1427303 13-Nov-2015 03:20
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Australia gets to decide who stays in Australia.  i can't see what the problem is personally.  If you don't like it leave, you can still appeal your removal, from here in NZ

 
 
 
 


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  # 1427310 13-Nov-2015 06:16
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nathan: Australia gets to decide who stays in Australia.  i can't see what the problem is personally.  If you don't like it leave, you can still appeal your removal, from here in NZ


Generally I would agree, however based on what is being reported the case of the decorated NZ Soldier is concerning, also Australia in recent years appears to be sliding further into official xenophobia and to an extent racism.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1427331 13-Nov-2015 07:45
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On the face of it locking someone up just for joining a motorcycle club is outrageous

Maybe there's more to the story.

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  # 1427333 13-Nov-2015 07:55
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Definitely more to that story.  Comments as much from the Aussie government in the media.  

I am kind of with Aussie on this one, I am just surprised we don't do the same...Want to live in NZ?  Sure, welcome, make yourself at home provided you are a contributing upstanding member of the community.  Commit a serious crime and see-ya-later.  

It really grates me these people who commit serious and violent crimes and then moan about their personal rights being violated, not even a thought to the rights of their victim.

Political grandstanding aside, I don't think NZ has a leg to stand on, but as Aussie have set the standard, lets reciprocate with their criminals still enjoying our country.      

 




Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman



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Ultimate Geek


  # 1427335 13-Nov-2015 07:55
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I agree with geektastic and nathans first comment. They can always leave and come back.

If they have beem there decades, its their fault for not applying for citizenship.

Personnally, this has more to do with sending a message to the potential millions of illegal migrants on australias door step, i.e. dont come here, and if you do, dont expect a open door.


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  # 1427336 13-Nov-2015 08:03
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What I do not understand is why (if many of these people have been in Australia since a very young age) the people concerned have never taken out AU citizenship. 

Surely this would then have made this whole issue a moot point? At least for them. 

I see the main crux of the issue being that we do not have alignment on both sides of the Tasman. 

Perhaps we start deporting Australian criminals? I don;t know whether that would work or even if it's legal under our law, but couldn't it make the Aussies sit up and notice the effect that their actions are having on our country? 

Maybe if every country that has detainees caught up in this farce started treating Aussie criminals the same way? 

Personally, I don't want to get into the whole "should we care or not" argument because that's quite circular, but we do have the opportunity to do something about this...it's just whether that makes us any better than them...





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  # 1427341 13-Nov-2015 08:19
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I agree with John Keys view on this topic.

He could not have said it any better.


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  # 1427359 13-Nov-2015 08:56
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nathan: On the face of it locking someone up just for joining a motorcycle club is outrageous

Maybe there's more to the story.


New Zealand have turned back people with motorcycle gang affiliations as well - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4594123/Aussie-bikie-gang-Rebels-not-welcome - however the laws are much stricter over there.

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  # 1427363 13-Nov-2015 09:07
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I saw a great cartoon yesterday of an aboriginal explaining to a Kiwi that deporting prisoners is in the Ozzie DNA, just look at their history. On a more serious note, while there are many great and kind Australian individuals, some of whom I count among my friends, the overall society is deeply racist and always has been. Modern xenophobia is just another expression of that, which is actually pretty ironic for a country built from immigration. I wonder how many of the Kiwis being sent back are Maori or Pacific Islanders? There are nasty strands in the lucky country psyche and from time to time those emerge. Just look at the statements of the Immigration Minister. All about payback and how much bigger his penis is, nothing about how things got to that point in the first place.

 




I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1427364 13-Nov-2015 09:08
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Handsomedan: 
I see the main crux of the issue being that we do not have alignment on both sides of the Tasman. 

Perhaps we start deporting Australian criminals? I don;t know whether that would work or even if it's legal under our law, but couldn't it make the Aussies sit up and notice the effect that their actions are having on our country? 

Maybe if every country that has detainees caught up in this farce started treating Aussie criminals the same way? 


New Zealand does expel visa holders who have broken their visa conditions by breaking the law (which is basically what's happening here). Australia has definitely taken a hard line approach here (nothing new) and NZ has shown more leniency to some Australians living in NZ who have been convicted of a crime, but the basics of it are unless you're a citizen of a country it's a privilege to be able to live there. If you break the conditions of your visa then expect to be deported, try having a criminal record and then get into the US. I'm not yet a NZ citizen and it's a privilege to be able to live here (not a right), I have a wife and family here and I would never do anything to risk that.

I really don't like the way people are being treated over there (the visa breakers/overstayers/genuine refugees) but at the end of the day as long as Australia sticks to the international rules then there's nothing NZ can do. Rock the boat too much and the risk is the special category visa is removed or made even stricter, xenophobia is a very powerful tool over there and the next time politicians are looking for a scapegoat for economic troubles "all the Kiwis coming over here taking our jobs" could be the excuse the politicians in charge decide to use.



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Master Geek


  # 1427380 13-Nov-2015 09:41
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Thanks for the responses so far and for keeping it civil.
General consensus so far seems to be that they can deport them.
Follow-up question. Could/should NZ provide Consular Assistance to any kiwi detainees that want it?

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.

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  # 1427401 13-Nov-2015 10:01
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robcreid: 

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.


What? Pretty normal? None of these Kiwis on the island have been convicted for minor offences. (its manslaughter, armed robbery, grievous bodily harm and assaulting children and or women with a weapon). 

The rioting of these thugs on the island just proves to me what these criminals are all about.

Besides. Why should they get consular assistance? They have the opportunity to come back to NZ if they want to but are opting against it. They choosing their circumstances. 





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Master Geek


  # 1427434 13-Nov-2015 11:02
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DizzyD:
robcreid: 

It is pretty normal for kiwi's who get themselves in trouble overseas, including committing crimes, to get a consular visit to make sure the are being treated fairly and assist them getting in contact with family and lawyers.


What? Pretty normal? None of these Kiwis on the island have been convicted for minor offences. (its manslaughter, armed robbery, grievous bodily harm and assaulting children and or women with a weapon). 

The rioting of these thugs on the island just proves to me what these criminals are all about.

Besides. Why should they get consular assistance? They have the opportunity to come back to NZ if they want to but are opting against it. They choosing their circumstances. 

I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of their offences.
My understanding is that any kiwi overseas is entitled to ask for consular assistance no matter how serious their crimes.
Here is a list from TVNZ of Kiwis jailed overseas for some pretty serious offences some of whom have asked for assistance.
Even Phillip Smith asked for consular assistance when arrested in Brazil .

Whether they get deported or opt to come home voluntarily they are likely going to need immigration paperwork given that in some cases they have been in Aussie for years and may not have NZ passports.

     

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  # 1427439 13-Nov-2015 11:12
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If I read things right the Kiwi Soldier has not been convicted or charged with any offences. It seems to be due to association.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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