Are you better or worse off?

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#548415 22-Nov-2011 13:15

Bee: If no one votes then what happens?

NonprayingMantis has a secret plan - encourage apathy so no one votes anymore and then only his votes will select and determine the government. : ).

Cymro

283 posts

Ultimate Geek

#548417 22-Nov-2011 13:16

Am I better off than I was 3 years ago? Yes.

Is it because of anything the government did/didn't do? Not really.

Honestly I think people individually have a much larger impact on their own circumstances than pretty much anything the government does. Having said that, I think you need to look at what different parties plan on doing and think if you would apply the same kind of logic to your own finances or business, and if their policies and plans seem unrealistic, they probably are.

tardtasticx

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#548422 22-Nov-2011 13:34

NonprayingMantis:
tardtasticx:
NonprayingMantis: Personally I am better off in dollar terms ? but that is more down to my own decisions (jobs I have taken on gives me upside for income, having kids gives me income downside, bigger house means I have to spend more money on mortgage payments, etc etc). The net impact of government policy on GST and income tax made me slightly better off, but not much.

Doesn?t really make much difference anyway since I am not going to bother voting since I have better things to do with my weekend.

Voting is like playing lottery but with none of the benefits. i.e. the chances of your slip of paper making any difference whatsoever is very close to zero, yet at least with lotto if your slip of paper does make a difference at least you get a load of cash. If my vote happened to be the casting vote in an election then all I would be doing is choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Everyone's vote makes a difference believe it or not, It takes what, 10minutes to vote? I think everyone who can vote, should vote. Like they say, if you don't vote, no one cares about your opinion. Haha

My vote makes a difference? Really?   Tell me then, let’s imagine two scenarios.

1)     I go out and vote on polling day

2)     I don’t vote on polling day

What is the chance the outcome of the election will be any different from one scenario to the next? Practically zero*. I probably have a better chance of winning lotto.

(actually, I believe that because of the way our MMP system works, with coalitions etc, it is actually impossible for my vote to make a difference).

But imagine if everyone had the same mindset as you, or like a million had the same mind set. "Its just my vote, it wont matter" then we have 1 million less votes, and one party will probably win by a landslide. At the end of the day its your choice not to vote, but its just:
1) shows you are lazy for not taking 10 or so minutes out of your day to vote
2) takes away your right to complain when the government does something you dont like, since you didn't vote for anyone to begin with.

mattwnz

20164 posts

Uber Geek

#548425 22-Nov-2011 13:40

I think many people who are worse off, have already voted with their feet, and moved to Oz, due to the record numbers now leaving. For the first time in a long time NZs net migration is negative. Therefore I think you will find that most people here will say they are better off, or about the same.

I think the only way to fix NZ, is to increase productivity, so we earn more from overseas, and stop borrowing from china. We can cut our spending, but that can lower our standard of living. Unfortunately I haven't seen any party with a plan on this.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#548429 22-Nov-2011 13:47

tardtasticx:
NonprayingMantis:
tardtasticx:
NonprayingMantis: Personally I am better off in dollar terms ? but that is more down to my own decisions (jobs I have taken on gives me upside for income, having kids gives me income downside, bigger house means I have to spend more money on mortgage payments, etc etc). The net impact of government policy on GST and income tax made me slightly better off, but not much.

Doesn?t really make much difference anyway since I am not going to bother voting since I have better things to do with my weekend.

Voting is like playing lottery but with none of the benefits. i.e. the chances of your slip of paper making any difference whatsoever is very close to zero, yet at least with lotto if your slip of paper does make a difference at least you get a load of cash. If my vote happened to be the casting vote in an election then all I would be doing is choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Everyone's vote makes a difference believe it or not, It takes what, 10minutes to vote? I think everyone who can vote, should vote. Like they say, if you don't vote, no one cares about your opinion. Haha

My vote makes a difference? Really?   Tell me then, let’s imagine two scenarios.

1)     I go out and vote on polling day

2)     I don’t vote on polling day

What is the chance the outcome of the election will be any different from one scenario to the next? Practically zero*. I probably have a better chance of winning lotto.

(actually, I believe that because of the way our MMP system works, with coalitions etc, it is actually impossible for my vote to make a difference).

But imagine if everyone had the same mindset as you, or like a million had the same mind set. "Its just my vote, it wont matter" then we have 1 million less votes, and one party will probably win by a landslide. At the end of the day its your choice not to vote, but its just:
1) shows you are lazy for not taking 10 or so minutes out of your day to vote
2) takes away your right to complain when the government does something you dont like, since you didn't vote for anyone to begin with.

If a million people thought this way, and a party was goingto win by a landslide, then my vote has even less chance of making a difference. My vote would only make a difference if it became the casting vote - whihc it definitely wouldn't under a landslide

Luckily, it doesn’t matter what I imagine, only what happens in reality. The reality is that other people don’t think like this.

In fact, paradoxically, if everyone did think like this, then my vote would matter - since then I would be the only person voting so I would be guaranteed to have the casting vote.

networkn

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#548433 22-Nov-2011 13:55

NonprayingMantis: Personally I am better off in dollar terms ? but that is more down to my own decisions (jobs I have taken on gives me upside for income, having kids gives me income downside, bigger house means I have to spend more money on mortgage payments, etc etc). The net impact of government policy on GST and income tax made me slightly better off, but not much.

Doesn?t really make much difference anyway since I am not going to bother voting since I have better things to do with my weekend.

Voting is like playing lottery but with none of the benefits. i.e. the chances of your slip of paper making any difference whatsoever is very close to zero, yet at least with lotto if your slip of paper does make a difference at least you get a load of cash. If my vote happened to be the casting vote in an election then all I would be doing is choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Took me less than 5 minutes in total to vote, since I voted in advance. I consider it my civil responsibility. I used to have a bad attitude to voting that my one vote didn't help, and that not voting absolved me of responsibility for the consequences, however not voting means you don't get to have an opinion or complain if things don't go well!

I'd encourage you to reconsider your decision to not vote, it's not really that big of a deal to spend 10 minutes every 3 years surely?

mattwnz

20164 posts

Uber Geek

#548436 22-Nov-2011 14:03

I think people who don't vote, have no right to complain about the people voted in. It is a civil responsibility, like jury service etc. However it isn't compulsory in NZ to vote, even though it is compulsory in Oz.

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NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

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#548445 22-Nov-2011 14:21

mattwnz: I think people who don't vote, have no right to complain about the people voted in. It is a civil responsibility, like jury service etc. However it isn't compulsory in NZ to vote, even though it is compulsory in Oz.

I’ve seen this stated multiple times in this thread, but nobody has explained why this is the case. Can anybody explain why, just because I didn’t vote, I don’t get to have an opinion?

(and in response to others, it might only take you 5 minutes to vote, but for me it takes 15 minutes just to get to the polling station, so we are talking a half hour round trip even if there is no queue, and there quite often is.)

networkn

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#548452 22-Nov-2011 14:28

Well even 45 minutes every 3 years doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

You don't get to complain about the government or it's actions because you didn't vote, which means you don't care who gets in or what they do when they are there. Whatever the government does, is fine by you. You can speak your piece but no-one who knows you didn't vote is likely to give your opinion much credence. I certainly wouldn't. Choosing to not vote, is choosing to not have an opinion, why should it be any different?

Obviously that may sound personal, but I would feel the same way if my wife didn't want to vote.

I would suggest whatever your plans this weekend, the most important thing you'll do, will be less important than voting. Your vote would HELP shape how the country is run (or ruined depending on who gets in) for the next 3 years and potentially further.

Personally it sounds more laziness than anything else, it is for most people who don't vote.

Bee

732 posts

Ultimate Geek

#548465 22-Nov-2011 14:44

As an example - I am getting dinner for all of geekzone and ask you to vote - MCD's BK or KFC...

Lets say The winner is MC'ds but you wanted BK... if you didn't bother to vote at all then you just get what you are given. You don't have a right to COMPLAIN about the result unless you participate in the process of getting there!

You always have a right to your OPINION but thats not the issue here...

You have at least try to influence the country in the direction you want it to go - after all its your only chance for another 3 years!

Edit: if I had enough money to buy dinner for all of Geekzone it would probably be BurgerFuel - definitely not McD's :p

Doing your best is much more important than being the best.

mattwnz

20164 posts

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#548467 22-Nov-2011 14:48

NonprayingMantis:
mattwnz: I think people who don't vote, have no right to complain about the people voted in. It is a civil responsibility, like jury service etc. However it isn't compulsory in NZ to vote, even though it is compulsory in Oz.

I?ve seen this stated multiple times in this thread, but nobody has explained why this is the case.? Can anybody explain why, just because I didn?t vote, I don?t get to have an opinion?

(and in response to others, it might only take you 5 minutes to vote, but for me? it takes 15 minutes just to get to the polling station, so we are talking a half hour round trip even if there is no queue,? and there quite often is.)

It's about being part of society, living in the country and taking part etc. Personally I think it probably should be compulsory to vote, it is in Oz, and our laws tend to follow their laws. We have even changed our give way rules to match, which will make it easier for NZ drivers to adjust to ozzie road rules when they move over there.

Perhaps online or postal voting would be better these days, to get more voters, who don't want to make the trip.

networkn

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#548469 22-Nov-2011 14:55

Bee: As an example - I am getting dinner for all of geekzone and ask you to vote - MCD's BK or KFC...

Lets say The winner is MC'ds but you wanted BK... if you didn't bother to vote at all then you just get what you are given. You don't have a right to COMPLAIN about the result unless you participate in the process of getting there!

You always have a right to your OPINION but thats not the issue here...

You have at least try to influence the country in the direction you want it to go - after all its your only chance for another 3 years!

Edit: if I had enough money to buy dinner for all of Geekzone it would probably be BurgerFuel - definitely not McD's :p

That's a reasonably clear and simple explanation. Whilst your vote may not be the difference between the two options, you contributed to the decision making and therefore if MCD's gives everyone food poisoning you would be within your rights to comment that you had voted the other way.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

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#548477 22-Nov-2011 15:03

networkn: Well even 45 minutes every 3 years doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

You don't get to complain about the government or it's actions because you didn't vote, which means you don't care who gets in or what they do when they are there. Whatever the government does, is fine by you. You can speak your piece but no-one who knows you didn't vote is likely to give your opinion much credence. I certainly wouldn't. Choosing to not vote, is choosing to not have an opinion, why should it be any different?

Obviously that may sound personal, but I would feel the same way if my wife didn't want to vote.

I would suggest whatever your plans this weekend, the most important thing you'll do, will be less important than voting. Your vote would HELP shape how the country is run (or ruined depending on who gets in) for the next 3 years and potentially further.

Personally it sounds more laziness than anything else, it is for most people who don't vote.

Who says I don’t care? Just because I choose not to vote, doesn’t mean I don’t care.
I am just acknowledging that my vote has almost zero chance of making any difference so it is not worht the effort.
Probably got more chance of winning the lotto, yet does that mean that people who don't buy lotto tickets don't care about money.

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#548478 22-Nov-2011 15:05

networkn:
Bee: As an example - I am getting dinner for all of geekzone and ask you to vote - MCD's BK or KFC...

Lets say The winner is MC'ds but you wanted BK... if you didn't bother to vote at all then you just get what you are given. You don't have a right to COMPLAIN about the result unless you participate in the process of getting there!

You always have a right to your OPINION but thats not the issue here...

You have at least try to influence the country in the direction you want it to go - after all its your only chance for another 3 years!

Edit: if I had enough money to buy dinner for all of Geekzone it would probably be BurgerFuel - definitely not McD's :p

That's a reasonably clear and simple explanation. Whilst your vote may not be the difference between the two options, you contributed to the decision making and therefore if MCD's gives everyone food poisoning you would be within your rights to comment that you had voted the other way.

what about if you voted for MCDs, it won by a landslide, but then gave everyone food poisoning? Do you have the right to complain then, even though you voted for the option that was bad?

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#548481 22-Nov-2011 15:07

networkn:
Bee: As an example - I am getting dinner for all of geekzone and ask you to vote - MCD's BK or KFC...

Lets say The winner is MC'ds but you wanted BK... if you didn't bother to vote at all then you just get what you are given. You don't have a right to COMPLAIN about the result unless you participate in the process of getting there!

You always have a right to your OPINION but thats not the issue here...

You have at least try to influence the country in the direction you want it to go - after all its your only chance for another 3 years!

Edit: if I had enough money to buy dinner for all of Geekzone it would probably be BurgerFuel - definitely not McD's :p

That's a reasonably clear and simple explanation. Whilst your vote may not be the difference between the two options, you contributed to the decision making and therefore if MCD's gives everyone food poisoning you would be within your rights to comment that you had voted the other way.

Except, unless the voting was extremely tight between MCDs and BK, my vote would make no difference to the ultimate result. And if it makes no difference, how can it be said to be contributing?

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