The Thai cave boys

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#2058641 19-Jul-2018 09:45

kryptonjohn:

I don't see it as TPS. I think if anyone publicly called the diver a pedo they'd get hammered. In fact the rich guy can get away with it because his money makes him legally invulnerable.

Musk acted like a big baby when nobody was interested in his sub. He couldn't let it go and kept going on about it until one of the divers got fed up to the point of telling him where to stick it. At that point Musk used his lofty platform to make possibly the most egregious smear possible about the diver.

His subsequent "apology" was slow in coming and seemed insincere and couched in self justification. I used to think Musk was a bit of a hero. No longer.

What if the comments were exactly reversed?

tdgeek

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#2058649 19-Jul-2018 09:49

networkn:

I believe he would have been politely thanked and told to be on his way. I don't see this as tall poppy at all. I see this as Musk continuing to try and inject himself where he wasn't able to help, therefore being a hinderance, and where some people might have felt inclined to let it go, the diver took exception to it.

I know who I think is the hero and deserves more slack for off colour comments, it's the guy(s) who put on diving suits and went in to get those kids, risking their own lives.

One guy put his life on the line and saved 13 people, the other was a well intentioned person who didn't handle rejection of his ideas well and lashed out.

I'd suggest lots of (potentially rich and famous) people offered help and were rejected and you don't hear about that, which is how it should be.

Musk undid any good he was trying to do with his comments in my view.

There is no doubt as to the actions of all divers, all 18 of them. That's nothing to do with my point, but it is being used to excuse his behaviour, minimise it, that started all this off. I stand by my points 150% But given this thread is about a potential tragedy Im not commenting on this issue here anymore, its not the place.

kryptonjohn

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#2058651 19-Jul-2018 09:52

tdgeek:

kryptonjohn:

I don't see it as TPS. I think if anyone publicly called the diver a pedo they'd get hammered. In fact the rich guy can get away with it because his money makes him legally invulnerable.

Musk acted like a big baby when nobody was interested in his sub. He couldn't let it go and kept going on about it until one of the divers got fed up to the point of telling him where to stick it. At that point Musk used his lofty platform to make possibly the most egregious smear possible about the diver.

His subsequent "apology" was slow in coming and seemed insincere and couched in self justification. I used to think Musk was a bit of a hero. No longer.

What if the comments were exactly reversed?

If the Unsworth called Musk a pedo? I expect Musk would use his resources to utterly destroy him.

If Musk told Unsworth to stick his scuba tank where the sun don't shine? Musk would have been laughed off the stage.

tdgeek

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#2058666 19-Jul-2018 09:58

kryptonjohn:

tdgeek:

kryptonjohn:

I don't see it as TPS. I think if anyone publicly called the diver a pedo they'd get hammered. In fact the rich guy can get away with it because his money makes him legally invulnerable.

Musk acted like a big baby when nobody was interested in his sub. He couldn't let it go and kept going on about it until one of the divers got fed up to the point of telling him where to stick it. At that point Musk used his lofty platform to make possibly the most egregious smear possible about the diver.

His subsequent "apology" was slow in coming and seemed insincere and couched in self justification. I used to think Musk was a bit of a hero. No longer.

What if the comments were exactly reversed?

If the Unsworth called Musk a pedo? I expect Musk would use his resources to utterly destroy him. No. Maybe consider it, but given Musk started it, and the tragedy situation that existed, no luck there

If Musk told Unsworth to stick his scuba tank where the sun don't shine? Musk would have been laughed off the stage. Yes, I believe so. But ok for non rich boy to do so.

Out from me

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#2058688 19-Jul-2018 10:24

Who knows the details of what was said? We only have media reports and the public comments of the individuals involved. I'm 100% with the diver on this one. Musk should have made his offer if he thought it was worthwhile, then gone quietly back to whatever he usually does. He was just getting in the way and he should have realised that instead of spitting the dummy.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2058695 19-Jul-2018 10:29

Reality check. AFAIK Unsworth expert caver with intimate knowledge of the Thai caves not so much a diver.
"He was right inside the rescue operation from start to finish. He’s an expert caver, not diver, so worked at the cave entrance. But no-one knows those caves like him and he brought in the cavers who made the rescue happen. I was there. Were you?" - Jonathan Head BBC correspondent

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#2058703 19-Jul-2018 10:50

kryptonjohn:
In fact the rich guy can get away with it because his money makes him legally invulnerable.

Sure Musk is big in his own right but not because he is rich, because he headed the company that kicked auto/energy/oil+petrol/space into gear. Some people would rather he not fall because he is doing far better things than just making money.

I've dealt with both types of people. As someone put it before 'suffered well meaning fools with ideas' as well as harda***s, usually of the older generation, who while skilled in their own domain have little patience for 'new ideas'. They generally don't mix at parties.

I personally blame the media for it getting out of hand, but for them its like not breathing to give up drama like this.

Unsworth as far as I can find is not ex-mil or diver, he's a financial broker and cave exploring hobbyist (a very good one). He also did the surveys of the caves back in 2014-15 so he knows these specific ones quite well.

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#2058706 19-Jul-2018 10:55

tdgeek:

He is a hero, no doubt. And he is angry and selfish

He could be generous, he could be selfish. He could be ordinarily angry, he could be ordinarily calm. You just don't know. You don't know the guy.

You are speculating based on comments made when he was very likely tired and stressed.

The fact he risks his life to save people - suggests he is generous.

His comments to Elon Musk suggest he lost his temper in difficult circumstances - no more.

Musk should have had enough sense to know this was a PR battle he could not win. Perhaps he just doesn't see those angles.

Mike

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#2058707 19-Jul-2018 10:55

SpartanVXL:
kryptonjohn:

In fact the rich guy can get away with it because his money makes him legally invulnerable.

Unsworth as far as I can find is not ex-mil or diver, he's a financial broker and cave exploring hobbyist (a very good one). He also did the surveys of the caves back in 2014-15 so he knows these specific ones quite well.

Yeah more fool me for not questioning the MSM who repeatedly refer to him as a diver.

However the important thing is he knows better than most (if not anyone) is the layout and obstacles in the caves, which would make him the best to say whether Musk's sub idea had merit?

tdgeek

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#2058717 19-Jul-2018 11:11

MikeAqua:

tdgeek:

He is a hero, no doubt. And he is angry and selfish

He could be generous, he could be selfish. He could be ordinarily angry, he could be ordinarily calm. You just don't know. You don't know the guy.

You are speculating based on comments made when he was very likely tired and stressed.

The fact he risks his life to save people - suggests he is generous.

His comments to Elon Musk suggest he lost his temper in difficult circumstances - no more. You state your speculation as fact

Musk should have had enough sense to know this was a PR battle he could not win. Perhaps he just doesn't see those angles.

Same thing, its the trendy choice

MikeAqua

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#2058823 19-Jul-2018 13:12

tdgeek:

MikeAqua:

He could be generous, he could be selfish. He could be ordinarily angry, he could be ordinarily calm. You just don't know. You don't know the guy.

You are speculating based on comments made when he was very likely tired and stressed.

The fact he risks his life to save people - suggests he is generous.

His comments to Elon Musk suggest he lost his temper in difficult circumstances - no more. You state your speculation as fact

Musk should have had enough sense to know this was a PR battle he could not win. Perhaps he just doesn't see those angles.

Same thing, its the trendy choice

Do you think words like could, likely and suggest imply factual statements?

I did make two factual statements though: -

"You just don't know. You don't know the guy."

If you do know the diver tboth of my factual statements are wrong. Do you in fact know him?

Mike

tdgeek

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#2058825 19-Jul-2018 13:29

MikeAqua:

tdgeek:

MikeAqua:

He could be generous, he could be selfish. He could be ordinarily angry, he could be ordinarily calm. You just don't know. You don't know the guy.

You are speculating based on comments made when he was very likely tired and stressed.

The fact he risks his life to save people - suggests he is generous.

His comments to Elon Musk suggest he lost his temper in difficult circumstances - no more. You state your speculation as fact

Musk should have had enough sense to know this was a PR battle he could not win. Perhaps he just doesn't see those angles.

Same thing, its the trendy choice

Do you think words like could, likely and suggest imply factual statements?

I did make two factual statements though: -

"You just don't know. You don't know the guy."

If you do know the diver tboth of my factual statements are wrong. Do you in fact know him?

He isn't a diver he is a cave expert as already stated. If there is NO factual knowledge apart from what each said, why the beat up on Musk? Must be speculation? The position is clear, Musk is bad, Unsworth is good, read the thread. Why is that is no one knows? Yet the bias is very clear, its TPS and cheer for the underdog. Maximise what Musk said, minimise what Unsworth said, and add some excuses which are speculation. This isn't about either actually, its the usual beat up an cheer the underdog.

What I do know is what each said. They are both at fault. I consider Unsworth more at fault as he stated this. I consider Musk more at fault as his comment was harsher. Should Musk know better? Yes. Should Unsworth know better? Obviously not, as he is the underdog that everyone has sided with. That's the point

networkn

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#2058827 19-Jul-2018 13:35

tdgeek:

He isn't a diver he is a cave expert as already stated. If there is NO factual knowledge apart from what each said, why the beat up on Musk? Must be speculation? The position is clear, Musk is bad, Unsworth is good, read the thread. Why is that is no one knows? Yet the bias is very clear, its TPS and cheer for the underdog. Maximise what Musk said, minimise what Unsworth said, and add some excuses which are speculation. This isn't about either actually, its the usual beat up an cheer the underdog.

What I do know is what each said. They are both at fault. I consider Unsworth more at fault as he stated this. I consider Musk more at fault as his comment was harsher. Should Musk know better? Yes. Should Unsworth know better? Obviously not, as he is the underdog that everyone has sided with. That's the point

Some days I struggle to understand your reasoning.

Just because someone sides with the guy who has less money, doesn't make it TPS. People are against Musk in this instance, because he said something outrageous in response to something far less outrageous in what he admitted was tantrum, over not getting the recognition he CLEARLY so badly wanted.

There is absoloutely NO justification for calling someone a pedophile unless they have been convicted of a crime.

tdgeek

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#2058829 19-Jul-2018 13:43

networkn:

tdgeek:

He isn't a diver he is a cave expert as already stated. If there is NO factual knowledge apart from what each said, why the beat up on Musk? Must be speculation? The position is clear, Musk is bad, Unsworth is good, read the thread. Why is that is no one knows? Yet the bias is very clear, its TPS and cheer for the underdog. Maximise what Musk said, minimise what Unsworth said, and add some excuses which are speculation. This isn't about either actually, its the usual beat up an cheer the underdog.

What I do know is what each said. They are both at fault. I consider Unsworth more at fault as he stated this. I consider Musk more at fault as his comment was harsher. Should Musk know better? Yes. Should Unsworth know better? Obviously not, as he is the underdog that everyone has sided with. That's the point

Some days I struggle to understand your reasoning.

Just because someone sides with the guy who has less money, doesn't make it TPS. People are against Musk in this instance, because he said something outrageous in response to something far less outrageous in what he admitted was tantrum, over not getting the recognition he CLEARLY so badly wanted.

There is absoloutely NO justification for calling someone a pedophile unless they have been convicted of a crime.

Its ok to suggest he has sex with his sub?

My reasoning is clear, I dont default to the standard bias. I look at it from an objective view, which is clearly not representative if there is a target. Both were wrong. One started it, one responded, both wrong. But its just a beatup for the usual standard reasons these days. If we all agree it is all speculation, I fail to see how the bias is so one sided. The default preference is to side with one guy and beat up the other, without hard facts. In any case, this was already decided before either of them said anything. The default reaction.

tdgeek

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#2058847 19-Jul-2018 13:45

networkn:

Just because someone sides with the guy who has less money, doesn't make it TPS.

Which is why I asked what happens if it is reversed? Same result. Two opposing scenarios, same result.

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