Awful events in Paris 2015-11-14

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#1428212 15-Nov-2015 02:11

gzt:
Geektastic: The thing the terrorists seem to fail to grasp is that eventually their actions will result in less and less tolerance for their religion and views outside the confines of the natural home of Islam.

This is exactly what they want. They hope to set everyone against each other. Do not confuse these guys with ordinary Muslim people because they want you to do that.

Geektastic, I agree that is not a consideration for them not because they overlook it, and might be forced to consider it, but because it is irrelevant to their position.

gzt, what Geektastic said is more like "They will set everyone against THEM". So how does this set everyone against each other?

But what you said sounded like something I read a long time ago about the history of the birthplace of Islam. I couldn't find it but it said something like this: that many Muslims admire the heritage of the Arabian peninsular because it was never subdued by Alexander the Great, the Romans and others who wanted to bring their civilization. So their descendants (actual and religious) will fight anyone that they consider is trying to conquer them, even if it is not open war but a "cultural domination".

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#1428213 15-Nov-2015 02:42

Geektastic:
JWR:
Geektastic:
Stan: Sad day for France.

Surprised they attacked France considering what Russia is doing to isis at the moment.

It's probably a simple question of where your face fits. France is very multiculti - especially Paris - so it is easy to blend in. Thanks to Frau Merkel, Europe is filling up with migrants of one kind or another at an alarming rate so one more is no surprise to anyone, so to speak. Russia is more homogeneous so a foreign face stands out and draws attention. Russian is also harder to learn and less commonly learned than French.

I don't agree with that.

Russia is one of the diverse countries on earth. It spans Europe and Asia.

I think the reason ISIS, ISIL, Daesh target France is because of France's control of (what is now) Syria between the world wars.

France had a fairly appalling reign over that area when Britain and France split up the middle east after WW1.

Of course that in now way justifies the atrocities against people in Paris today.

That is not quite the definition of multiculti I was aiming at...!

I suppose it is possible that they could still be bleating on about events of ages ago - but on that basis, the Italians are in for it when the lads and I have finished in the shed. Blooming Romans - what have they ever done for us. And don't get me started on how much interest the Danes owe us on the Danegeld...

Personally, I think that they are just mad.

They can't all be mad. That is just so unlikely as to be impossible.

Personally, I think a lot about what I believe/don't believe and more importantly what there is evidence for.

But, I don't always understand why people have such beliefs.

I wouldn't dismiss History as a lot of bleating.

It can explain where some beliefs come from.

MikeB4

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#1428219 15-Nov-2015 07:39

I prefer to honour the fallen innocent and not enter a pointless debate.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Hammerer

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#1428225 15-Nov-2015 08:30

MikeB4: I prefer to honour the fallen innocent and not enter a pointless debate.

I hear a pointed rebuke to someone. Is that what you intended? I didn't realise that the first responder gets to define the purpose of a forum thread.

Your assessment of the debate is probably incorrect even if there have been many threads on similar topics. Sometimes silence does bring clarity but we're too far from the awful events to benefit from that. Different people respond to tragedy in different ways. It might be pointless to repeat that truism, but I doubt that there is any intention to disrespect those who died.

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#1428226 15-Nov-2015 08:38

Hammerer:
MikeB4: I prefer to honour the fallen innocent and not enter a pointless debate.

I hear a pointed rebuke to someone. Is that what you intended? I didn't realise that the first responder gets to define the purpose of a forum thread.

Your assessment of the debate is probably incorrect even if there have been many threads on similar topics. Sometimes silence does bring clarity but we're too far from the awful events to benefit from that. Different people respond to tragedy in different ways. It might be pointless to repeat that truism, but I doubt that there is any intention to disrespect those who died.

My post was simply a statement of my position.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1428237 15-Nov-2015 09:51

I think a lot of opinions will be written on two things

1. How did the French secret service not see this coming, and how they (govt) are going to respond.

2. The detailed civil and social aspects that led to French people doing this, and how they (govt) are going to respond.

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#1428239 15-Nov-2015 09:58

JWR:
Geektastic:
JWR:
Geektastic:
Stan: Sad day for France.

Surprised they attacked France considering what Russia is doing to isis at the moment.

It's probably a simple question of where your face fits. France is very multiculti - especially Paris - so it is easy to blend in. Thanks to Frau Merkel, Europe is filling up with migrants of one kind or another at an alarming rate so one more is no surprise to anyone, so to speak. Russia is more homogeneous so a foreign face stands out and draws attention. Russian is also harder to learn and less commonly learned than French.

I don't agree with that.

Russia is one of the diverse countries on earth. It spans Europe and Asia.

I think the reason ISIS, ISIL, Daesh target France is because of France's control of (what is now) Syria between the world wars.

France had a fairly appalling reign over that area when Britain and France split up the middle east after WW1.

Of course that in now way justifies the atrocities against people in Paris today.

That is not quite the definition of multiculti I was aiming at...!

I suppose it is possible that they could still be bleating on about events of ages ago - but on that basis, the Italians are in for it when the lads and I have finished in the shed. Blooming Romans - what have they ever done for us. And don't get me started on how much interest the Danes owe us on the Danegeld...

Personally, I think that they are just mad.

They can't all be mad. That is just so unlikely as to be impossible.

Personally, I think a lot about what I believe/don't believe and more importantly what there is evidence for.

But, I don't always understand why people have such beliefs.

I wouldn't dismiss History as a lot of bleating.

It can explain where some beliefs come from.

I think we have had numerous threads hammering this out and so far there is an impasse, which probably means the association itself is at least generating enough angst.

What is quite certain though is this is not the end, it's like the crusades of the 21st century in its infancy. France have declared "merciless" retribution.

Geektastic

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#1428244 15-Nov-2015 10:31

JWR:
Geektastic:
JWR:
Geektastic:
Stan: Sad day for France.

Surprised they attacked France considering what Russia is doing to isis at the moment.

It's probably a simple question of where your face fits. France is very multiculti - especially Paris - so it is easy to blend in. Thanks to Frau Merkel, Europe is filling up with migrants of one kind or another at an alarming rate so one more is no surprise to anyone, so to speak. Russia is more homogeneous so a foreign face stands out and draws attention. Russian is also harder to learn and less commonly learned than French.

I don't agree with that.

Russia is one of the diverse countries on earth. It spans Europe and Asia.

I think the reason ISIS, ISIL, Daesh target France is because of France's control of (what is now) Syria between the world wars.

France had a fairly appalling reign over that area when Britain and France split up the middle east after WW1.

Of course that in now way justifies the atrocities against people in Paris today.

That is not quite the definition of multiculti I was aiming at...!

I suppose it is possible that they could still be bleating on about events of ages ago - but on that basis, the Italians are in for it when the lads and I have finished in the shed. Blooming Romans - what have they ever done for us. And don't get me started on how much interest the Danes owe us on the Danegeld...

Personally, I think that they are just mad.

They can't all be mad. That is just so unlikely as to be impossible.

Personally, I think a lot about what I believe/don't believe and more importantly what there is evidence for.

But, I don't always understand why people have such beliefs.

I wouldn't dismiss History as a lot of bleating.

It can explain where some beliefs come from.

Mad or brainwashed or whatever you want to call it. Blowing up yourself and others in some crazy belief that you will get 70 virgins in paradise etc etc is close enough to 'mad' as makes no difference in practical terms.

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#1428246 15-Nov-2015 10:59

joker97:

What is quite certain though is this is not the end, it's like the crusades of the 21st century in its infancy. France have declared "merciless" retribution.

Which will be exactly what Deash expect / planned for / hope for.
Short of sweeping up/detaining every person (in the west) who might possibly become radicalized, shutting borders, and invading/securing Iraq/Syria/Yemen/Sinai/Tunisia and more -there's probably not a hell of a lot they can do that they're not already doing. Nail them in one place, they'll pop up somewhere else, because that's what they are, a malignant metastasizing blight - whatever the medicine needed, the treatment is also going to hurt the patient.

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#1428247 15-Nov-2015 11:01

joker97:... France have declared "merciless" retribution.

Which, sadly, means that in all likelihood more innocent civilians (albeit probably not western ones) will get killed and hurt.

(Note that this is not an argument against them doing so, just an expression of lament that 'good' people [on both 'sides'] going about their business get hurt.)

Sometimes I use big words I don't always fully understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

Oldmanakbar

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#1428248 15-Nov-2015 11:09

joker97: I think a lot of opinions will be written on two things

1. How did the French secret service not see this coming, and how they (govt) are going to respond.

2. The detailed civil and social aspects that led to French people doing this, and how they (govt) are going to respond.

It's a massive country with thousands of miles of totally unguarded borders. Anyone could just rock up and do whatever they want effectively. The people generally responsible are from countries that have no effective security infrastructure or simply do not care, meaning there is nothing at the point of origin to hamper these sorts of things.

Then internally France has what, nearly 66 Million people? Of which a fairly large portion are immigrants. Not to mention the recent flood of humanity pouring into Europe currently. To monitor everyone, all the time to make sure this sort of thing does not happen would require massive change on an Orwellian scale.

I would say if the French secret service saw it coming it would be a total fluke as opposed to "how did they not see this coming!!"

I think France will do one of two things.

1. Plant flowers, sing, hold hands and hope it doesn't happen again. (might include dropping some more bombs to help fuel the fire)

or

2. Institute massive social and political changes, none of which will be popular with anyone and will lead to lesser freedoms across the board.

The latter is what they should do to start the process of stamping this crap out. The former is what they will more than likely do.

While it is sad that France is the target of this rubbish, this is everyone's problem in the western world. And until everyone gets together and does something about it, the problem will continue to grow even more out of control.

None of the long term solutions for this are very nice, and there will be a lot of broken eggs before it is all over.
Most regular people are just not ready to admit they would like for it to be the other guys eggs to be broken.

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#1428253 15-Nov-2015 11:23

DaveB: What will Europe look like in another 10 years time? I am so glad I chose NZ as the place to live for my family.

Indeed, the same to a lesser extent be said about NZ i.e. what will it be like in 10 years but obviously due to our geography and foreign policy nz is not as much at risk as other nations

As awful as what has occurred in Paris is spare a thought for the ~1200 under 5 children who die each day from malaria or the ~8000 children who die every day from hunger related causes both completely preventable

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#1428258 15-Nov-2015 11:39

xlinknz:
DaveB: What will Europe look like in another 10 years time? I am so glad I chose NZ as the place to live for my family.

Indeed, the same to a lesser extent be said about NZ i.e. what will it be like in 10 years but obviously due to our geography and foreign policy nz is not as much at risk as other nations

As awful as what has occurred in Paris is spare a thought for the ~1200 under 5 children who die each day from malaria or the ~8000 children who die every day from hunger related causes both completely preventable

As long as NZ remains such a liberal nation (people ignorantly believing that every culture/religion can just live in harmony without issues), I don't think its going to be very long until we find ourselves in the very same situation as Europe. Many people in France actually sympathize with the Islamist militant groups.

Its easier to deal with an enemy across borders, but dealing with the enemy within, walking amounts us is not a problem easily solved.

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#1428268 15-Nov-2015 11:55

DizzyD:
xlinknz:
DaveB: What will Europe look like in another 10 years time? I am so glad I chose NZ as the place to live for my family.

Indeed, the same to a lesser extent be said about NZ i.e. what will it be like in 10 years but obviously due to our geography and foreign policy nz is not as much at risk as other nations

As awful as what has occurred in Paris is spare a thought for the ~1200 under 5 children who die each day from malaria or the ~8000 children who die every day from hunger related causes both completely preventable

As long as NZ remains such a liberal nation (people ignorantly believing that every culture/religion can just live in harmony without issues), I don't think its going to be very long until we find ourselves in the very same situation as Europe. Many people in France actually sympathize with the Islamist militant groups.

Its easier to deal with an enemy across borders, but dealing with the enemy within, walking amounts us is not a problem easily solved.

We tend to somewhat mirror Australia, with about a 1-2 year lag.

DizzyD

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#1428270 15-Nov-2015 12:22

Paris terrorist held Syrian refugee passport, says Greek government official

Living on a liitle island makes border control easier to enforce. But thanks to the Greens here in NZ, we have increased our refugee quota.

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