Pumped Storage: what is the scale needed?

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#2529823 27-Jul-2020 20:45

shk292: And already we have environmentalists saying it shouldn’t be done because it’s a nationally significant wetland or something. Still searching for that zero carbon zero impact energy solution...

It will drown some nature plants. Every house we all live in, HAD nature plants in the past. If we can set aside an area that can be used to be green, then be green. Same reason we dont have more hydro as that was canned by the Greens

Tracer

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#2529826 27-Jul-2020 21:02

tdgeek:

shk292: And already we have environmentalists saying it shouldn’t be done because it’s a nationally significant wetland or something. Still searching for that zero carbon zero impact energy solution...

It will drown some nature plants. Every house we all live in, HAD nature plants in the past. If we can set aside an area that can be used to be green, then be green. Same reason we dont have more hydro as that was canned by the Greens

Opposition to hydro was huge long before the greens. See the save Manapouri campaign, which is the reason that lake doesn't have that much storage. It was supposed to have 10 m more storage.

k1wi

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#2529846 27-Jul-2020 22:31

Tracer:
Opposition to hydro was huge long before the greens. See the save Manapouri campaign, which is the reason that lake doesn't have that much storage. It was supposed to have 10 m more storage.

You could argue that ’the Greens’ were around long before the Green Party was formed - in the form of the Values party, which was formed around the time of Save Manapouri. Fitzsimons and Donald etc were involved in that party until it fractured and a significant portion shifted to the Green Party, which then joined in with the Alliance Party (such is FPP), before that dissolved too and the Green Party went solo again in time to take advantage of MMP.

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#2529859 27-Jul-2020 23:00

I am curious to know how much hydro power is spilled, because there is no demand for electricity, because it has rained so much, say in the last 10 years. I suspect that relatively little has been wasted through being spilled. So how will Lake Onslow be filled? Not from Huntly surely? Maybe this would be feasible if massive wind farms were also built?

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#2529891 28-Jul-2020 07:49

JessieB:

I am curious to know how much hydro power is spilled, because there is no demand for electricity, because it has rained so much, say in the last 10 years. I suspect that relatively little has been wasted through being spilled. So how will Lake Onslow be filled? Not from Huntly surely? Maybe this would be feasible if massive wind farms were also built?

Spilling water from hydro dams is a bit of a sensitive matter just at the moment.
The Electricity Authority more or less accused Meridian of spilling water and not offering the generation capacity to jack up prices - see "Meridian involved in 'undesirable trading situation' says Electricity Authority in preliminary decision" https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121980237/meridian-involved-in-undesirable-trading-situation-says-electricity-authority-in-preliminary-decision

So, allegedly, sometimes water gets spilled even when there is demand for electricity

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#2529893 28-Jul-2020 08:12

JessieB:

I am curious to know how much hydro power is spilled, because there is no demand for electricity, because it has rained so much, say in the last 10 years. I suspect that relatively little has been wasted through being spilled. So how will Lake Onslow be filled? Not from Huntly surely? Maybe this would be feasible if massive wind farms were also built?

Pumped storage would pair well with a push for more renewable generation - pushing for (say) 95% renewable energy by building more wind farms and increasing efficiency of existing hydro would create more frequent gluts e.g. spring snowmelt coupled with solid winds. It would also help to soak up the surplus from Manapouri after Tiwai closes. I suspect relatively little is spilled at present (notwithstanding market shenanigans)

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sittingduckz

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#2529920 28-Jul-2020 09:20

shk292: And already we have environmentalists saying it shouldn’t be done because it’s a nationally significant wetland or something. Still searching for that zero carbon zero impact energy solution...

It is a wetland... oh it's too wet now... you guys are never happy. 🤣

I'm not a complete idiot, I still have some parts missing.

frankv

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#2529948 28-Jul-2020 10:09

logo:

How many blocks of concrete would be needed for this to replace pumped storage?

https://qz.com/1686109/softbank-bets-on-energy-vault-to-store-energy-in-concrete-blocks/

Seems to me that it would be easier to run a cablecar/railway up the side of a mountain to lift "concrete block" wagons (and Switzerland has a lot of this infrastructure). A single block could store a lot more energy if you were to lift if several hundred metres instead of 35 (max).

But I suspect a water pump would be much more efficient than a crane or cablecar.

Jase2985

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#2529960 28-Jul-2020 10:30

frankv:

Seems to me that it would be easier to run a cablecar/railway up the side of a mountain to lift "concrete block" wagons (and Switzerland has a lot of this infrastructure). A single block could store a lot more energy if you were to lift if several hundred metres instead of 35 (max).

But I suspect a water pump would be much more efficient than a crane or cablecar.

Like this in the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrlnnbJuDg

Sidestep

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#2529973 28-Jul-2020 10:44

frankv:

Seems to me that it would be easier to run a cablecar/railway up the side of a mountain to lift "concrete block" wagons (and Switzerland has a lot of this infrastructure). A single block could store a lot more energy if you were to lift if several hundred metres instead of 35 (max).

But I suspect a water pump would be much more efficient than a crane or cablecar.

Giant flywheels, molten salt, pulling trains up mountains, concrete blocks down mines, compressed air caverns or battery farms are generally expensive, experimental or relatively small scale. Most are pilot plants still messing around at kilowatt scale.

With all its experience in hydro projects, NZ has the engineering skills to pull this one off right now.
There's a chemical/kinetic/thermal/magnetic storage comparison here that makes interesting reading.

Pumped Hydro's a mature, well tested technology that's been mainstream since the '60s.
It currently accounts for 95% of all utility-scale energy storage in the United States.

There are a ton of these in use around the world, and another 34 or so under construction just in China.. here in Canada at least four large projects are at the consent stage.

It's a unique and auspicious time for NZ to look at this; ie. when the future shape of the country's power infrastructure has suddenly become clearer, and before it's desperately needed.
NZ - in the past - has often had problems anticipating and completing large infrastructure projects.

And this is only an investigation so far. The actual construction – and the $5 billion or more it will cost - might be years away. But the political climate, historically low interest rates, and a fast-moving series of changes to NZ's energy requirements are pointing to this being viable. Fingers crossed!

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#2530005 28-Jul-2020 11:18

nickb800:Pumped storage would pair well with a push for more renewable generation - pushing for (say) 95% renewable energy by building more wind farms and increasing efficiency of existing hydro would create more frequent gluts e.g. spring snowmelt coupled with solid winds. It would also help to soak up the surplus from Manapouri after Tiwai closes. I suspect relatively little is spilled at present (notwithstanding market shenanigans)

A significant amount is spilled. Reducing spillway losses while managing hydro lakes while is what drives pumped storage - the other benefits are relatively insignificant. That's assuming it's not being used to smooth the load on our thermal plants - which I'm sure isn't the objective here.

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frankv

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#2530016 28-Jul-2020 11:41

JessieB:

I am curious to know how much hydro power is spilled, because there is no demand for electricity, because it has rained so much, say in the last 10 years. I suspect that relatively little has been wasted through being spilled. So how will Lake Onslow be filled? Not from Huntly surely? Maybe this would be feasible if massive wind farms were also built?

https://emidatasets.blob.core.windows.net/publicdata/Datasets/Environment/_AdditionalInformation/ArchivedDatasets/20100630_HydrologicalData/20090331_Lake_level_history/20090331_Lake_level_history_report.pdf has stats regarding hydro lake levels. It only goes up to 2008 or so :( . Looking at the graph for Lake Taupo, its level rarely exceeds the maximum (357.25m amsl) so water would rarely be spilled down the Waikato River. Lakes Ohau, Tekapo, Pukaki, Manapouri seem to have many overfull events.

So filling Lake Onslow could be done using hydro power generated in the South Island.

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#2530027 28-Jul-2020 12:28

The fundamental problem ins NZ seems to be that the population is increasingly concentrated in the upper half of the North island, while a lot of clean generation is in the South Island.

More clean generation is required in the North Island.

I have no idea where.

Mike

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#2530030 28-Jul-2020 12:32

MikeAqua:

The fundamental problem ins NZ seems to be that the population is increasingly concentrated in the upper half of the North island, while a lot of clean generation is in the South Island.

More clean generation is required in the North Island.

I have no idea where.

Basically Geothermal (central NI+ northland ) and Wind (on the Coastlines)- there was talk of a multi MW scale PV plant at the refinery, but I think that idea might have died with COVID

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#2530041 28-Jul-2020 12:54

wellygary:

Basically Geothermal (central NI+ northland )

Some of our geo plants have quite high GHG emissions.

https://nzgeothermal.org.nz/geothermal-energy/emissions/

Mike

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