What could/should NZ do about the Kiwi detainees.

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#1427649 13-Nov-2015 16:16

robcreid:
frankv: Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point.

And that's why I asked the initial question. I see plenty of people calling the John Key gutless and saying he should do something but I've not seen many suggestions as to what form that 'something' should take.

well here is some well though out suggestions

http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2015/11/13/gordon-campbell-on-john-keys-detainee-dos-and-donts-list/

such as:
(a) Key should stand up for international law. Asylum seekers fleeing persecution are being penned up indefinitely offshore. In doing so, Australia is in breach of the UN Refugee Convention. In subjecting the children of asylum seekers to this barbaric regime indefinitely, it is in breach of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In its treatment of detainees, it is arguably in breach of the UN Convention Against Torture. Last year, New Zealand made a song and dance about us being elected to the Security Council. So, we should be willing to defend these crucial UN treaties, and should be publicly denouncing Australia’s violation of them.

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#1427651 13-Nov-2015 16:18

DizzyD:
frankv: Whilst I tend to agree that there's not a great deal that John Key can actually do, I do agree that he's gutless and amoral in not making it a point. Whilst there is ONE child molester and some violent criminals amongst the Kiwi detainees, there are many that are deserving of assistance. And whatever happened to the concept that once you've done your time, you've paid your debt and your punishment is over?

I have no problem with Australia deporting a Kiwi when he finishes his 12 month sentence. During that 12 months, they can deal with the deportation issue and the appeals and all of that. When his time is up, either he walks out the door back to Australia, or is put onto a plane to NZ. But, where the crime (if there was even a crime) was way back in the past, why *can't* they appeal the deportation whilst they continue to lead productive lives in Australia? Why can't they be given (e.g.) 3 months to sort their lives out before they leave? Imagine if the NZ Govt said Aussies could only dispute their tax bill/criminal conviction/speeding ticket if they move to Australia.

It's disingenuous to say that "They are free to leave at anytime and return to NZ." Many have not been to NZ for decades, so it can hardly be said that they are "returning". Once deported, they can't re-enter Australia for 5 years, I think. If ever, maybe, given that they may have a jail term on their record. Imagine trying to sell your house/car/whatever in Aussie whilst in NZ. Imagine moving to NZ where you know no-one, whilst your family is in Australia.

I do think that what Australia is currently doing with detainees is not that different from what the USA was (is?) doing at Guantanamo Bay. Locking up people without trial, let alone conviction, for indefinite periods is an abuse of human rights. Whether it's legal or not, it is *wrong*. And on that basis alone, the NZ Govt should be assisting the citizens it is supposed to represent. Maybe we should change our flag, because there's precious little to be proud of about the current one in this scenario.

I think it's ironic that what Australia is doing is essentially the same as what Britain did in the 1800s, when it transported hundreds of political prisoners (notably the Irish) to Australia. Have the descendants of those victims of state oppression completely forgotten what was done to their own forefathers?

You missing one major point. New Zealand is also doing the same thing.

These are not Australian citizens, they illegally in Australia. Australia owes them nothing.
We do the same thing here to people that come to NZ and break their visa conditions, let alone become a criminal.

Figures provided under the Official Information Act show that 447 people from 54 different countries were deported from NZ after committing a crime between 2010 and August this year.

As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

How many of these deportations from NZ resulted in a person being detained whilst they appealed the process?

Jardine said the family had been treated terribly once they lost their appeal, from conflicting information to what luggage he could take.

Which sort of implies that they weren't treated terribly *before* they lost their appeal.

gzt

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#1427652 13-Nov-2015 16:18

The government has been very slow looking into the issue. Hard for the government to make any decisions if there is no information.

Is the Australian goverment mixing direct ex-jail and non jail persons in the same mickey mouse off shore serco facility?

It looks like they are. That could be pretty bad on many levels.

DizzyD

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#1427655 13-Nov-2015 16:23

frankv:
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right!

sir1963

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#1427656 13-Nov-2015 16:24

MikeB4:
nathan: Australia gets to decide who stays in Australia. i can't see what the problem is personally. If you don't like it leave, you can still appeal your removal, from here in NZ

Generally I would agree, however based on what is being reported the case of the decorated NZ Soldier is concerning, also Australia in recent years appears to be sliding further into official xenophobia and to an extent racism.

i.e. they are going back to the country the used to be.
Australia has a shocking human rights/racist past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_referendum,_1967_(Aboriginals)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-01/gerber---aboriginal-citizenship/4344704

http://australianmuseum.net.au/indigenous-australia-timeline-1901-to-1969

gzt

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#1427658 13-Nov-2015 16:26

Well exactly. Why they call it a detention, that is the offical name for the place, is beyond me.

sir1963

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#1427660 13-Nov-2015 16:27

DizzyD:
frankv:
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right!

Detained, yes.

They are being given a choice "Yeah look, you can either stay here for life, or you can plead guilty and get life"

Australia is in breach of a number of UN conventions.

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DizzyD

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#1427665 13-Nov-2015 16:33

sir1963:
DizzyD:
frankv:
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right!

Detained, yes.

They are being given a choice "Yeah look, you can either stay here for life, or you can plead guilty and get life"

Australia is in breach of a number of UN conventions.

No. New Zealanders on Christmas Island can return home to New Zealand if they want, what they are fighting is the Australian deportation orders. They want back into Aus.

Why should they be let back into Aus if they are not Citizens, Permanent residents, or hold a valid visa? Why should they be let back in if they are criminals?

Personally I would rather have them in Aus. The less criminals in NZ the better.

meesham

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#1427666 13-Nov-2015 16:34

sir1963:
Detained, yes.

They are being given a choice "Yeah look, you can either stay here for life, or you can plead guilty and get life"

Australia is in breach of a number of UN conventions.

The Australian immigration minister has said that there'll be no bias against their application if they wait for the appeal while back in New Zealand.

frankv

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#1427667 13-Nov-2015 16:41

DizzyD:
frankv:
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right!

There you go again... In many cases, they are NOT going BACK.

Before they can go back to Australia, they will have to pay the cost of their deportation, so it's NOT a free ride either.

If they agree to be deported to a country many have not been to for decades, and leave all their possessions and families in Australia, then they can leave Christmas Island.

meesham

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#1427668 13-Nov-2015 16:45

frankv:
Before they can go back to Australia, they will have to pay the cost of their deportation, so it's NOT a free ride either.

If they agree to be deported to a country many have not been to for decades, and leave all their possessions and families in Australia, then they can leave Christmas Island.

Not sure where you're getting your information from, they don't have to pay their deportation costs - http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/11/10/nz-gets-assurance-detainees

As for the second point, if their possessions and family in Australia were important to them they shouldn't have risked everything by breaking the law and their visa conditions.

DizzyD

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#1427671 13-Nov-2015 16:49

frankv:
DizzyD:
frankv:
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right!

There you go again... In many cases, they are NOT going BACK.

Before they can go back to Australia, they will have to pay the cost of their deportation, so it's NOT a free ride either.

If they agree to be deported to a country many have not been to for decades, and leave all their possessions and families in Australia, then they can leave Christmas Island.

There is NO option for them to go back to Aus.

Hell. Is NZ really such a bad place? People will rather choose to be detained in a detention center, on an island, than come to NZ.

frankv

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#1427680 13-Nov-2015 17:04

DizzyD:
No. New Zealanders on Christmas Island can return home to New Zealand if they want, what they are fighting is the Australian deportation orders. They want back into Aus.

Except, as above, that NZ isn't home. Nor a place that they are "returning" to. They don't want back into Aus -- they want to stay in Aus.

Why should they be let back into Aus if they are not Citizens, Permanent residents, or hold a valid visa?

Because it's inhumane to keep them on Christmas Island (or in fact locked up anywhere) indefinitely.

Why should they be let back in if they are criminals?

Because they've contributed to Aus via taxes, etc. And what about the ones that aren't actually criminals?

Also bear in mind that the test of what is a criminal in this case is whether they could have been sentenced to a year or more in jail. So, for example in Western Australia (it varies from state to state), the penalty for possession of cannabis is a maximum $2000 fine and/or 2 years in prison. So in WA a single cannabis possession conviction means you're deported. But it gets worse... that's a total *potential* sentence, so (e.g.) 2 drink driving convictions in Queensland would also see you on Christmas Island.

Linuxluver

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#1427713 13-Nov-2015 18:33

robcreid: There is are fair amount of political grandstanding and partisan vitriol on both sides of this topic in other forums and I was hoping to avoid that here although that may be unavoidable. I just wanted to ask a question that I haven't really covered in the media although I'm happy to get links to info if I have missed it.

If NZ did decide to officially take issue with Aussie handling of the New Zealand citizens deportations what avenues would be available to us and what are the most likely to influence the Aussie politicians and/or public opinion?

Is there international legal possibilities or are Australia on relatively firm legal ground being able to deport non-citizens providing they give suitable due process?

Would some sort of UN objection be possible, or given our relatively close diplomatic ties would some sort of direct delegation be better received providing we could agree on the makeup of one?

Is anything likely to have any effect given how the Aussies seem to be digging their heels in on other issues like asylum seekers?

There are a few issues at play.

First, everyone (in NZ, AU and most other 'civilised' countries) to be deported has a right of appeal. In New Zealand, this is handled by the Immigration and Protection Tribunal. There are rules around it and processes and that generally involve having timely access to advice, funds, application materials, personal documentation, any medical services that may be required to establish fitness, and correspondence to support any appeal. Basically, it's a 'court' of sorts....though many of the 'hearings' are done on paper - depending on the type of removal or deportation sought by the government. In the case of people being deported for serious crimes, they would almost always get a hearing in person...unless they decide not to appeal at all....and that hearing would be done well before their release.

Australia have done a couple of things considered, normally, to be very dodgy:

1. The people who may wish to appeal have been sent about as far away from any family or advice or legal services as it is possible to get in Australia. They don't have freedom of movement or access to banking or lawyers. In NZ, a criminal who was released from prison for anything would be subject whatever parole arrangements existed. In the case of serious crimes, their deportation is usually ordered well before their release...and if their appeal fails they are driven from the prison to the airport on release. Otherwise, they are usually not detained if the appeal is still in process for some reason.

2. Australia have implemented the change of law retrospectively. So people who may have served a (cumulative) year in jail in recent times are rounded up at 5am and sent to Xmas Island. They maye have been out of jail for months or years before the law change. Retrospective legislation is usually regarded as a very bad thing to do because people could not have behaved otherwise at the time as the law relating to whatever the behaviour was did not then exist.

Secondly, Australia have rounded up and detained some people who haven't actually done anything wrong anywhere. No convictions and no time served anywhere. Aussie just doesn't like them. Mainly, it seems because they are brown. Bottom line, Australia is demonstrating several serious kinds of very bad faith dealings in - essentially - denying these people rights Australia has agreed to guarantee to everyone. No real surprise, in a way, as the conservative government in Australia is typical of such governments.....and generally will consider the law doesn't apply to them if they don't like it. Examples of this are legion among conservative governments worldwide in the past several decades.
How to redress this? There isn't any way to coerce Australia into doing the right thing and giving these people their rights. A legal case could be taken the UN Human Rights commission. An appeal to fairness and good practice by NZ should have been registered. But such appeals tend to fall on deaf ears among people who have already decided to ignore the law.

The only way to really fix it is vote them out. Canada just got rid of its shonky, law-ignoring Conservative government......hopefully Australians will have to good sense to do the same next chance they get.

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#1427715 13-Nov-2015 18:49

DizzyD:
frankv:
As I said, I have no problem with the deportation. What I absolutely disagree with is "detaining" someone indefinitely.

These people have been offered a free ride back to NZ and they not taking it.
Detained? Yea right!

They have a right of appeal. What is unusual is that they ARE being detained in a very remote place with little or no communication until their appeal is heard. In fact, it seems to be very difficult for them to even be able to make that appeal. Worse...the law being used to detain many of them didn't exist when they were released. It's retrospective. That's a bad thing as people had no chance to obey or take note of a law that didn't exist yet.

In New Zealand, such people would either have had their deportation hearing well before release from prison, or they would be freed into the community and go through that process. Australia is either sending people straight to Xmas island on release.....with no prior opportunity to appeal or - far worse - rounding people up at 5am and shipping them off with no prior notice. They might have got out of jail months or years ago. In some cases, the people rounded up haven't broken any law at all. This is just wrong. People have a right to due process and Australia is denying them that right.

These people don't want to be deported. Many of the have lived most of their lives in Australia. There is nothing for them in NZ. They will also be well aware that their chances of getting back into Australia will be very remote.

Also relevant is that once someone is deported from a country it can be very difficult to go to any other country. This would particularly apply to those who had sentences of less than 2 year or who have not committed any crime at all, but who have been detained. For them fighting this deportation might be the only way to secure their right to travel anywhere else for the rest of their lives.

This is one of those topics where people with strong opinions too often know very little about it....and they won't back down because they already put their mountain of ignorance out there and don't want to lose face.

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