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Linuxluver
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  #1707108 21-Jan-2017 19:42
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freitasm: @stan, Russia is not a democratic state. The roles of President and Prime Minister have been rolling between two people, there is persecution of people seen as critical of the state.

They aren't a communist state but are an autocratic state in my view.

 

Whatever Russia may or may not be, they are arguably more democratic than the United States. 

They operate a multi-party system which includes a strong element of proportionality in the State Duma. 

The US only has two relevant parties. 

 

Election processes are alleged to be corrupt in some places in Russia. I haven't seen any proof. 

 

In the US they use closed-source touch screens to vote and there is no paper trail. A recount is just adding together the totals from the voting machines. Easily cheated. 

 

Pot / Kettle / Black on this one......and Russia actually comes out looking more democratic.  





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dejadeadnz
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  #1707111 21-Jan-2017 19:46
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freitasm:

 

 

 

Being popular doesn't make it democratic. At minimum makes it populist.

 

 

One really has to wonder about the state of civics education when we have a sizable number of adults of apparently (at least) average IQ vehemently stating that majoritarianism per se makes for a democracy. Newsflash for these people: during (for example) pogroms against Jews or the Cultural Revolution in China, evidently enough of the relevant majorities decided that people had to die and deserved to die just because they were Jews or "subversives" (whatever the latter means). Are you seriously okay with this? If you aren't okay with it, then it must mean that you consider there are certain immutable or universal values that are so essential to a functional society or the fundamental "contract" between the state and its citizens that the majority cannot simply subvert on account of it having the numbers.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #1707113 21-Jan-2017 19:47
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dejadeadnz:

 

freitasm: @stan, Russia is not a democratic state. The roles of President and Prime Minister have been rolling between two people, there is persecution of people seen as critical of the state.

They aren't a communist state but are an autocratic state in my view.

 

Stan is an obvious troll with his constant "citation needed" replies. Also, people like him confuse majoritarianism as being the sole determinant of whether a country is democratic, when a philosophically and practically non-bankrupt notion of democracy requires respect for things like minority rights (Stan might like to Google the prosecution of LGBT people in Russia), freedom of the press (hint for Stan: Russia doesn't have much of it), and respect for human rights and rule of law.

 

Stan will of course come back and claim that all these sources are made up/biased with approximately two lines -- after quoting a stream of previous replies of course. 

 

 

Troll maybe,but not obvious. That is your means to advance your opinion. Not cool. 

 

LGBT? Many have an issue with LGBT, that doesnt make them non democratic. 

 

Freedom of the Press. Trump has decreed that he will choose who the press is. Democratic? It  must be, he won a democratic election. 




freitasm
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  #1707114 21-Jan-2017 19:48
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The election was democratic. It doesn't mean he personally has democracy at heart. His future actions will tell.





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freitasm
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  #1707115 21-Jan-2017 19:50
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As per above... If you folks could stops sticking labels at each other and don't make it personal, please...





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tdgeek
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  #1707116 21-Jan-2017 19:50
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Pumpedd:

 

I believe we will soon see US troops on the ground in Trumps fight against IS intensifies.

 

 

I expect so as he promised he will beat them, only he can. 


dejadeadnz
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  #1707119 21-Jan-2017 19:53
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tdgeek:

 

Troll maybe,but not obvious. That is your means to advance your opinion. Not cool. 

 

LGBT? Many have an issue with LGBT, that doesnt make them non democratic. 

 

Freedom of the Press. Trump has decreed that he will choose who the press is. Democratic? It  must be, he won a democratic election. 

 

 

I didn't say that Trump's behaviour is democratic -- don't put words into my mouth. Yeah, what a lovely democratic state a place would be if people just got jailed/persecuted because enough people don't like you because of your sexual orientation. You just answered your own question as to why Russia isn't democratic.

 

And you know what's really funny? Russia is actually morally and by international law obliged to care about LGBT rights, given that it has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. If you want to play the numbers game -- given that a great majority of countries on this planet have ratified the ICCPR and Russia has ratified it but does not live up to its spirit, this should be very offensive to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 
 

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billgates
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  #1707120 21-Jan-2017 19:53
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Linuxluver:

 

Election processes are alleged to be corrupt in some places in Russia. I haven't seen any proof. 

 

 

Skip to 1.40 for action else entire 3 minute video is good to watch

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsZsnrqmrnk

 

 

 

 





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Stan
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  #1707121 21-Jan-2017 19:53
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freitasm:

 

Stan:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

freitasm: @stan, Russia is not a democratic state. The roles of President and Prime Minister have been rolling between two people, there is persecution of people seen as critical of the state.

They aren't a communist state but are an autocratic state in my view.

 

Stan is an obvious troll with his constant "citation needed" replies. Also, people like him confuse majoritarianism as being the sole determinant of whether a country is democratic, when a philosophically and practically non-bankrupt notion of democracy requires respect for things like minority rights (Stan might like to Google the prosecution of LGBT people in Russia), freedom of the press (hint for Stan: Russia doesn't have much of it), and respect for human rights and rule of law.

 

Stan will of course come back and claim that all these sources are made up/biased with approximately two lines -- after quoting a stream of previous replies of course. 

 

 

When did I bring up freedom of the press? When did I bring up LBGT laws? I just said they are a democratic state you sir are the troll (notice how I address you directly try it sometime).

 

But if I understand your premise you are saying the US should not try bring tensions down with Russia because of these things? But Saudi Arabia are okay?

 

 

Exactly, you said Russia is a democratic state but dejadeadnz rightly pointed out that not having some of these (freedom of the press, human rights, etc) would disqualify it from being such a thing.

 

You didn't bring those items to the table, so someone had to point out, correctly. Just because there are elections in some countries doesn't make them "democratic states". Zimbabwe, Syria, North Korea are prime examples of countries with "elections" where their leaders have huge numbers of "approval".

 

 

 

 

Many country's have had issues with Human rights including New Zealand with LBGT laws and Womans rights in particular, heck look at all the spying by mass collection of data. None of this means they are not a democratic state.  


tdgeek
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  #1707122 21-Jan-2017 19:53
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freitasm:

 

As per above... If you folks could stops sticking labels at each other and don't make it personal, please...

 

 

Yes, please. Its a big subject, lets talk about the subject rather than cut the opponent to anyones views down. 


Stan
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  #1707123 21-Jan-2017 19:55
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Is not democracy the rule of the majority of the people? 


tdgeek
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  #1707125 21-Jan-2017 19:56
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dejadeadnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Troll maybe,but not obvious. That is your means to advance your opinion. Not cool. 

 

LGBT? Many have an issue with LGBT, that doesnt make them non democratic. 

 

Freedom of the Press. Trump has decreed that he will choose who the press is. Democratic? It  must be, he won a democratic election. 

 

 

I didn't say that Trump's behaviour is democratic -- don't put words into my mouth. Yeah, what a lovely democratic state a place would be if people just got jailed/persecuted because enough people don't like you because of your sexual orientation. You just answered your own question as to why Russia isn't democratic.

 

And you know what's really funny? Russia is actually morally and by international law obliged to care about LGBT rights, given that it has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. If you want to play the numbers game -- given that a great majority of countries on this planet have ratified the ICCPR and Russia has ratified it but does not live up to its spirit, this should be very offensive to you 

 

 

 

 

How does the US stack up re LGBT, given that its a democratic state???


cadman
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  #1707126 21-Jan-2017 19:58
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gzt:
amiga500: Obama massively expanded the use of drones. For every terrorist the drones killed it has probably radicalised another 10.

This may be true. The tone of your post indicates that you expect these drone killings to stop under Trump. I don't see any reason that might be the case.

 

Did you see any reason why they might be expanded under Obama?


tdgeek
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  #1707127 21-Jan-2017 20:00
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Stan:

 

freitasm:

 

Stan:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

freitasm: @stan, Russia is not a democratic state. The roles of President and Prime Minister have been rolling between two people, there is persecution of people seen as critical of the state.

They aren't a communist state but are an autocratic state in my view.

 

Stan is an obvious troll with his constant "citation needed" replies. Also, people like him confuse majoritarianism as being the sole determinant of whether a country is democratic, when a philosophically and practically non-bankrupt notion of democracy requires respect for things like minority rights (Stan might like to Google the prosecution of LGBT people in Russia), freedom of the press (hint for Stan: Russia doesn't have much of it), and respect for human rights and rule of law.

 

Stan will of course come back and claim that all these sources are made up/biased with approximately two lines -- after quoting a stream of previous replies of course. 

 

 

When did I bring up freedom of the press? When did I bring up LBGT laws? I just said they are a democratic state you sir are the troll (notice how I address you directly try it sometime).

 

But if I understand your premise you are saying the US should not try bring tensions down with Russia because of these things? But Saudi Arabia are okay?

 

 

Exactly, you said Russia is a democratic state but dejadeadnz rightly pointed out that not having some of these (freedom of the press, human rights, etc) would disqualify it from being such a thing.

 

You didn't bring those items to the table, so someone had to point out, correctly. Just because there are elections in some countries doesn't make them "democratic states". Zimbabwe, Syria, North Korea are prime examples of countries with "elections" where their leaders have huge numbers of "approval".

 

 

 

 

Many country's have had issues with Human rights including New Zealand with LBGT laws and Womans rights in particular, heck look at all the spying by mass collection of data. None of this means they are not a democratic state.  

 

 

Exactly. I am not au fait with LGBT, or all your opinions but thats a fact. A democracy doesnt mean we support ABCDE. China for example is a communist state, acting as a capitalist state. USA is a democratic state, and the President has differing views of LGBT and human rights. 


blakamin
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  #1707129 21-Jan-2017 20:04
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cadman:

 

gzt:
amiga500: Obama massively expanded the use of drones. For every terrorist the drones killed it has probably radicalised another 10.

This may be true. The tone of your post indicates that you expect these drone killings to stop under Trump. I don't see any reason that might be the case.

 

Did you see any reason why they might be expanded under Obama?

 

 

The rise of terror groups in the last 6 years?

 

It would've made no difference  who the president was. ISIL(S) was nothing 10 years ago, they were "taliban" and Al queda".


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