GCSB Protest March

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#880864 19-Aug-2013 10:30

KiwiNZ:

Thankfully common sense will prevail and NZ would not consider that along with any nation that has freedom as part of it's foundations.

"freedom" is a dangerouns term because its true meaning is that it includes not only the right of free choice, but the ability to exercise the right of free choice.

As long as people are forced to be educated, forced to live by a set of rules etc there is no freedom. True freedom is the ability to do what I like, when I like, and how I like, and bugger anybody else that tries to stop me.

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#880866 19-Aug-2013 10:34

Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:

Thankfully common sense will prevail and NZ would not consider that along with any nation that has freedom as part of it's foundations.

"freedom" is a dangerouns term because its true meaning is that it includes not only the right of free choice, but the ability to exercise the right of free choice.

As long as people are forced to be educated, forced to live by a set of rules etc there is no freedom. True freedom is the ability to do what I like, when I like, and how I like, and bugger anybody else that tries to stop me.

No that is anarchy, being able to "ability to do what I like, when I like, and how I like, and bugger anybody else that tries to stop me." alienates others rights and and will of course alienate your rights.

Klipspringer

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#880880 19-Aug-2013 10:38

KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:

Thankfully common sense will prevail and NZ would not consider that along with any nation that has freedom as part of it's foundations.

"freedom" is a dangerouns term because its true meaning is that it includes not only the right of free choice, but the ability to exercise the right of free choice.

As long as people are forced to be educated, forced to live by a set of rules etc there is no freedom. True freedom is the ability to do what I like, when I like, and how I like, and bugger anybody else that tries to stop me.

No that is anarchy, being able to "ability to do what I like, when I like, and how I like, and bugger anybody else that tries to stop me." alienates others rights and and will of course alienate your rights.

Noun: The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

MikeB4

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#880883 19-Aug-2013 10:41

Klipspringer:
Geektastic:
freitasm: So wrong. Voting is always a right in this context.

But it is not, is it?

Otherwise the mentally ill and prisoners would be able to do it. Since we accept that those people do not have that right, it is already not universal.

Passing an exam that shows you can exercise it with reasonable understanding is perfectly logical. More logical in fact that the reverse. Everyone has a 'right' to try and be a commercial pilot. Not everyone has the skills to pass the tests required to become one. How can making decisions about the economy of a nation be less important than flying a plane? Or even driving a car?

You saying the mentally ill can't vote in NZ? I did not know that.

While I agree partially with what you are saying, voting should never be limited to only certain groups.

But you raise an interesting point about denying the right for prisoners to vote. What if the majority of the country was in prison? Or just a far greater proportion which could sway the outcome of the elections. Ie, they (the prisoners) form, or somebody else forms a party to represent them? And that party promises no more prisons. Its still democratic right? Who are we as a minority (in a case like this) to deny them this right?

Democracy can and will eventually lead to mob rule if we have a large undereducated/stupid population. Democracy works well in western countries where the majority of the people are educated. It works worst (and shows its true failure of a system) in countries where the undereducated/stupid are a majority. We need to educate, and keep educating

Now I'm finding myself agreeing with you ..... I'm on the fence with this one.

It is a qualified exclusion...

"People who are in prison are not entitled to enrol while they are in prison. People who have been in a psychiatric hospital for more than three years after being charged with a criminal offence are also not eligible to enrol. Other psychiatric patients are entitled to enrol."

Klipspringer

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#880887 19-Aug-2013 10:47

KiwiNZ:

It is a qualified exclusion...

AN undemocratic exclusion. Thats my point.

KiwiNZ: "People who are in prison are not entitled to enrol while they are in prison. People who have been in a psychiatric hospital for more than three years after being charged with a criminal offence are also not eligible to enrol. Other psychiatric patients are entitled to enrol."

Not allowed/not entitled to: Rules setup by who? Rules forced onto a few?

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#880891 19-Aug-2013 10:51

Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:

It is a qualified exclusion...

AN undemocratic exclusion. Thats my point.

KiwiNZ: "People who are in prison are not entitled to enrol while they are in prison. People who have been in a psychiatric hospital for more than three years after being charged with a criminal offence are also not eligible to enrol. Other psychiatric patients are entitled to enrol."

Not allowed/not entitled to: Rules setup by who? Rules forced onto a few?

Read , comprehend

http://www.elections.org.nz/

sdav

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#880922 19-Aug-2013 11:23

Since voting was only extended to the poor/uneducated in very recent history, it says a lot for the collapses of previous civilisations and governments run by the elite of their time.

Also, Anarchy is not freedom. Absolute freedom results in anarchy. Maybe, most likely.

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Geektastic

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#880940 19-Aug-2013 11:54

Klipspringer:
Geektastic:
Klipspringer:
Geektastic:I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.

I don't agree with taking the rights of votes away from the stupid. Everybody in this country (baring the underage and prisoners) have the right to vote, and that's how it should stay.

If the majority are stupid, and they not allowed to vote. We end up with a government that does not represent them at all. And that means bigger problems.

Sorry but I have to disagree.

I see no reason why rights cannot be altered to reflect reality - in 1900 I had the 'right' to take opium and own unrestricted firearms. That right was curtailed. The expression 'rule of thumb' comes from a time when I had the right to beat my wife with a stick as long as it was no thicker than my thumb. Again, that right was curtailed.

Modern economies and the success of nations are too critical to be guided by those who are not intellectually adequate to grasp at least the reasonable basics of how things work. The cost of fixing possible mistakes is too great. I am not suggesting that you need to be a Mensa member in order to vote - merely that you should need to pass an exam to demonstrate a level of understanding.

We expect people to pass tests to drive, fly, be accountants, be doctors, be policemen and so on. I suggest that for a properly functioning democracy, passing a test to show you understand what you are doing when you exercise your right to vote is perfectly logical.

Rights are not some sort of religious thing handed down by a deity to be left unchanged for aeons: they are a modern construct that should have the flexibility to be altered to reflect current reality.

Your view is centered around government being in control of the economy.

That should not be the case, and its why I am perfectly OK for privatizing the entire economy and selling off all state owned businesses and assets.

Government should not control the economy and that control should rest in the people, and businesses themselves (like most capitalist countries). As you say, we expect people to pass tests to drive, fly etc .. Well then this can still happen, because we then employ people with certain skills to run the economy, without taking away anybody’s basic right to vote.

As long as NZ remains a socialist country, its not going to change. Our government is too involved in our economy. Its forever waisting our taxpayer money, bailing out failing insurance companies, meddling with who can/cannot get homeloans, owning public transport, owning and profiting on state owned assets etc .. Instead goverment should be regulating our economy, not running it.

I could not agree more. Personally, I despise socialism.

However, even in many very capitalist countries the government takes actions that have significant effect on the economy. The UK government for example wasted NZ$30 BILLION on a health service computer project it eventually canned. That money went into someone's pockets. Likewise they order NZ$15 billon submarines and have an airforce full of NZ$50 million fighters. Simply by being the biggest spender in town, governments alter economies even if they do not directly exert control over them.

Let us say that the political parties used smoke and mirrors and outright bribes to persuade people that returning them as the government so that they could create the NZ$30 billion failed computer system and that those measures succeeded only because enough stupid people were unable or couldn't be bothered to penetrate the smoke and mirrors and see the reality. That one mistake on their part as voters cost the nation NZ$30 billion and several generations yet to be born will be paying for the debts incurred as a result. Is that fair on them?

I'm not saying you would put a stop to all such things, but a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you're talking serious money. Far too serious, IMV, for people who have no great understanding of the basic principles involved to be able to make sensible decisions to be having much influence over them.

MikeB4

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#881004 19-Aug-2013 13:46

Klipspringer:
Geektastic:
Klipspringer:
Geektastic:I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.

I don't agree with taking the rights of votes away from the stupid. Everybody in this country (baring the underage and prisoners) have the right to vote, and that's how it should stay.

If the majority are stupid, and they not allowed to vote. We end up with a government that does not represent them at all. And that means bigger problems.

Sorry but I have to disagree.

I see no reason why rights cannot be altered to reflect reality - in 1900 I had the 'right' to take opium and own unrestricted firearms. That right was curtailed. The expression 'rule of thumb' comes from a time when I had the right to beat my wife with a stick as long as it was no thicker than my thumb. Again, that right was curtailed.

Modern economies and the success of nations are too critical to be guided by those who are not intellectually adequate to grasp at least the reasonable basics of how things work. The cost of fixing possible mistakes is too great. I am not suggesting that you need to be a Mensa member in order to vote - merely that you should need to pass an exam to demonstrate a level of understanding.

We expect people to pass tests to drive, fly, be accountants, be doctors, be policemen and so on. I suggest that for a properly functioning democracy, passing a test to show you understand what you are doing when you exercise your right to vote is perfectly logical.

Rights are not some sort of religious thing handed down by a deity to be left unchanged for aeons: they are a modern construct that should have the flexibility to be altered to reflect current reality.

Your view is centered around government being in control of the economy.

That should not be the case, and its why I am perfectly OK for privatizing the entire economy and selling off all state owned businesses and assets.

Government should not control the economy and that control should rest in the people, and businesses themselves (like most capitalist countries). As you say, we expect people to pass tests to drive, fly etc .. Well then this can still happen, because we then employ people with certain skills to run the economy, without taking away anybody’s basic right to vote.

As long as NZ remains a socialist country, its not going to change. Our government is too involved in our economy. Its forever waisting our taxpayer money, bailing out failing insurance companies, meddling with who can/cannot get homeloans, owning public transport, owning and profiting on state owned assets etc .. Instead goverment should be regulating our economy, not running it.

New Zealand is not a socialist country

Woolly

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#881091 19-Aug-2013 16:10

This short video below relates to the discussion over the last pages.

From Slavery to Freedom - The Jones Plantation - 12mins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8Rj5xkDPk&feature=player_detailpage

networkn

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#882471 21-Aug-2013 22:29

Thankfully this is now law, and people can get back to focusing on things which are actually important!

SaltyNZ

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#882533 22-Aug-2013 08:17

networkn: Thankfully this is now law, and people can get back to focusing on things which are actually important!

Such as determining the next steps in how to get rid of it.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

MikeB4

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#882545 22-Aug-2013 08:41

SaltyNZ:
networkn: Thankfully this is now law, and people can get back to focusing on things which are actually important!

Such as determining the next steps in how to get rid of it.

That alas will never happen, those in the Beehive that were opposed will forget their opposition if elected to the treasury benches.

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#882546 22-Aug-2013 08:46

KiwiNZ:
SaltyNZ:
networkn: Thankfully this is now law, and people can get back to focusing on things which are actually important!

Such as determining the next steps in how to get rid of it.

That alas will never happen, those in the Beehive that were opposed will forget their opposition if elected to the treasury benches.

Definitely. :-(

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SepticSceptic

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#882695 22-Aug-2013 11:58

networkn: Thankfully this is now law, and people can get back to focusing on things which are actually important!

Snapper quota !!

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