Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

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#800939 17-Apr-2013 13:16

qwerty7: On an individual family by family basis I believe cultures in today's society have equal opportunity. There is no difference between a single parent welfare child from culture A and a single parent welfare child from Culture B.

Look at the statistics, if this were true then the gradient gap wouldn't exist. If you really do think the opportunities are equal then you can only explain the statistical differences by making racist suggestions that somehow one race is inherently inferior in some way to another.

qwerty7:At what point do we know less of a certain culture in education is due to personal choices and not the effects of the treaty or lower socio economic backgrounds?

Some Maori and Pacific Islanders are malingerers, just like some Pakeha are malingerers. The rate of malingering isn't going to differ between races. The fact that some are in their situations due to personal choices doesn't explain the statistical differences overall, and certainly doesn't challenge the legitmacy of targeted assistance. The only way personal choices can explain the differences overall, if everything is truly equal as you contend, is to attribute flaws to a racial group. You're treading dangerously close to making that point in a round about fashion in your post.

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groynk

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#800974 17-Apr-2013 13:49

Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

I do, but not the Easter bunny, after the last long weekend...

MikeB4

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#800985 17-Apr-2013 13:53

After working for a quarter of a century in Social Services I can say from experience and without reservation there is a need for affirmative action to address the imbalance and to proactively work to resolve very serious social issues.

Kyanar

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#801020 17-Apr-2013 14:22

KiwiNZ: After working for a quarter of a century in Social Services I can say from experience and without reservation there is a need for affirmative action to address the imbalance and to proactively work to resolve very serious social issues.

An I vehemently oppose doing so by handing out money to anyone on the basis of race or religion.

The correct answer to this problem is to make education both more affordable and more desirable to ALL New Zealanders.

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#801023 17-Apr-2013 14:27

Kyanar:
KiwiNZ: After working for a quarter of a century in Social Services I can say from experience and without reservation there is a need for affirmative action to address the imbalance and to proactively work to resolve very serious social issues.

An I vehemently oppose doing so by handing out money to anyone on the basis of race or religion.

The correct answer to this problem is to make education both more affordable and more desirable to ALL New Zealanders.

The problem is way deeper than just "education both more affordable and more desirable"

groynk

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#801025 17-Apr-2013 14:29

Kyanar:
KiwiNZ: After working for a quarter of a century in Social Services I can say from experience and without reservation there is a need for affirmative action to address the imbalance and to proactively work to resolve very serious social issues.

An I vehemently oppose doing so by handing out money to anyone on the basis of race or religion.

The correct answer to this problem is to make education both more affordable and more desirable to ALL New Zealanders.

as stated previously in the thread, they aren't handed out to anyone based on race, they do have to be earned.
better education all round is important, why do you think race specific scholarships prevent this?

qwerty7

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#801029 17-Apr-2013 14:36

NZtechfreak:
qwerty7: On an individual family by family basis I believe cultures in today's society have equal opportunity. There is no difference between a single parent welfare child from culture A and a single parent welfare child from Culture B.

Look at the statistics, if this were true then the gradient gap wouldn't exist. If you really do think the opportunities are equal then you can only explain the statistical differences by making racist suggestions that somehow one race is inherently inferior in some way to another.
Why do you believe the gradient gap exist?

qwerty7:At what point do we know less of a certain culture in education is due to personal choices and not the effects of the treaty or lower socio economic backgrounds?

Some Maori and Pacific Islanders are malingerers, just like some Pakeha are malingerers. The rate of malingering isn't going to differ between races. The fact that some are in their situations due to personal choices doesn't explain the statistical differences overall, and certainly doesn't challenge the legitmacy of targeted assistance. The only way personal choices can explain the differences overall, if everything is truly equal as you contend, is to attribute flaws to a racial group. You're treading dangerously close to making that point in a round about fashion in your post.

Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Please understand I am not looking to cause tension, just questioning..
Dating back to treaty times yes I agree as an overall collective this is where these cultural imbalance issues have stemmed from.Maybe race specific scholarships are needed to balance it out because there is no better way. I also believe race specific scholarships promote segregation and where does it end, when is enough enough? I am not trying to say for a second enough has been done to resolve treaty disputes but it must be getting there. Personally I fail to see what there is to celebrate about Waitangi day when there is so much left to sort out. I don't believe race segregated scholarships and benefits are the way forward to a one people society.

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#801033 17-Apr-2013 14:43

groynk:
as stated previously in the thread, they aren't handed out to anyone based on race, they do have to be earned.
better education all round is important, why do you think race specific scholarships prevent this?

If King's College were to offer a scholarship that only 'white' boys were eligible to apply for - would you support this? It certainly wouldn't sit well with me!

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#801034 17-Apr-2013 14:43

qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7: On an individual family by family basis I believe cultures in today's society have equal opportunity. There is no difference between a single parent welfare child from culture A and a single parent welfare child from Culture B.

Look at the statistics, if this were true then the gradient gap wouldn't exist. If you really do think the opportunities are equal then you can only explain the statistical differences by making racist suggestions that somehow one race is inherently inferior in some way to another.
Why do you believe the gradient gap exist?

qwerty7:At what point do we know less of a certain culture in education is due to personal choices and not the effects of the treaty or lower socio economic backgrounds?

Some Maori and Pacific Islanders are malingerers, just like some Pakeha are malingerers. The rate of malingering isn't going to differ between races. The fact that some are in their situations due to personal choices doesn't explain the statistical differences overall, and certainly doesn't challenge the legitmacy of targeted assistance. The only way personal choices can explain the differences overall, if everything is truly equal as you contend, is to attribute flaws to a racial group. You're treading dangerously close to making that point in a round about fashion in your post.

Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Please understand I am not looking to cause tension, just questioning..
Dating back to treaty times yes I agree as an overall collective this is where these cultural imbalance issues have stemmed from.Maybe race specific scholarships are needed to balance it out because there is no better way. I also believe race specific scholarships promote segregation and where does it end, when is enough enough. I am not trying to say for a second enough has been done to resolve treaty disputes. Personally I fail to see what there is to celebrate about Waitangi day when there is so much left to sort out. But I don't believe race segregated scholarships and benefits are the way forward to a one people society.

I respectfully suggest a drive around Northland, Gisborne and Central North Island regions (not the tourist centres) will show very clearly why there is the need

qwerty7

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#801037 17-Apr-2013 14:55

I sometimes wonder why race should even come into statistics, why can't everyone be viewed on an individual basis. Will there ever be a day where we can say Maori are no longer disadvantaged compared to europeans and are given the same opportunities? Because that is why these scholarships exist and other benefits exist. Or will it continue for as long as the blame culture exist, self responsibility has to come into it somewhere.

You know, I really don't know the solution to cultural equality. But I still believe cultural specific scholarships do nothing but promote segregation.

NZtechfreak

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#801038 17-Apr-2013 14:56

qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s

You might want to look at a certain definition in the first post...

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qwerty7

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#801042 17-Apr-2013 15:00

NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s

undesirable characteristics do vary with race.

The racial segregation definition? I am not saying I believe in it. As I said above I sometimes wonder if race should even come into statistics. If one person really is as equal as another why does it matter what race they are? It is like reporting crime statistics based on eye colour.

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#801043 17-Apr-2013 15:02

NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s

You might want to look at a certain definition in the first post...

What is often seen as malingering is what is the result of someone who has received enough knock backs, putdowns and rejections that they have given up in order to protect themselves from that.

NZtechfreak

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#801044 17-Apr-2013 15:03

qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s

undesirable characteristics do vary with race.

Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible about this. I'm all ears.

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qwerty7

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#801046 17-Apr-2013 15:10

NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races

Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s

undesirable characteristics do vary with race.

Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners.
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html

In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori.

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