Good riddance to Obama and his drones. Pakistani villagers will be saying the same.

Forums › Off topic › Good riddance to Obama and his drones. Pakistani villagers will be saying the same.

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#1707130 21-Jan-2017 20:04

tdgeek:

How does the US stack up re LGBT, given that its a democratic state???

Not perfect but at least they don't have laws banning the distribution of so called "homosexual propaganda" (whatever this means) and banning gay pride parades (like some places in Russia do) certainly would not survive a First Amendment challenge in the US.

And once more: DO NOT put words into my mouth. I've only contended that Russia is not a democratic state. The world doesn't exist in binaries. Just because I don't consider Russia democratic, it doesn't mean that I necessarily accept that the US is democratic. Personally, I would consider it broadly democratic but there are certainly many aspects of its systems that fall well below what one ought to expect from a proper democracy. But none of this has any relevance to what's being discussed.

dejadeadnz

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#1707132 21-Jan-2017 20:07

tdgeek:

Exactly. I am not au fait with LGBT, or all your opinions but thats a fact. A democracy doesnt mean we support ABCDE.

An assertion is not an argument. I've already shown you why majoritarianism per se cannot make democracy. Refer to my post on pogroms and the cultural revolution. And for the love of all things good, please trim your quotes.

Rikkitic

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#1707134 21-Jan-2017 20:08

dejadeadnz:

Yeah, what a lovely democratic state a place would be if people just got jailed/persecuted because enough people don't like you because of your sexual orientation.

That is a pretty good description of most western democracies up until the 1960's and in some cases even later.

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Linuxluver

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#1707135 21-Jan-2017 20:08

Stan:

Is not democracy the rule of the majority of the people?

That's the usual way of seeing it. But democracy needn't be 50.01% majority dictatorship.

Many cultures operated on the basis of consensus. That's democracy in so far as the demos - the people - rule. But they rule as though everyone matters.

In NZ, the Green Party is probably one of the more significant practitioners of consensus decision making. It works. Objections are recognised and dealt with effectively. Few people fall out of the boat. In the end the outcome is something almost everyone can live with.

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Stan

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#1707136 21-Jan-2017 20:10

dejadeadnz:

tdgeek:

Exactly. I am not au fait with LGBT, or all your opinions but thats a fact. A democracy doesnt mean we support ABCDE.

An assertion is not an argument. I've already shown you why majoritarianism per se cannot make democracy. Refer to my post on pogroms and the cultural revolution. And for the love of all things good, please trim your quotes.

When did the western world become democratic?

cadman

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#1707137 21-Jan-2017 20:12

blakamin:

cadman:

gzt:
amiga500: Obama massively expanded the use of drones. For every terrorist the drones killed it has probably radicalised another 10.

This may be true. The tone of your post indicates that you expect these drone killings to stop under Trump. I don't see any reason that might be the case.

Did you see any reason why they might be expanded under Obama?

The rise of terror groups in the last 6 years?

It would've made no difference who the president was. ISIL(S) was nothing 10 years ago, they were "taliban" and Al queda".

Clearly that's in hindsight. However, he's claiming foresight.

dejadeadnz

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#1707138 21-Jan-2017 20:15

Stan: one might perhaps take you a bit more seriously if you would actually post some substantive contribution, instead of doing a blatant faux Socratic method by pretending to be making a genuine inquiry. Nothing that I have asserted requires me to conclusively establish the exact moment in time in which the western world as a whole became democratic. In fact, given the diversity of cultures, different levels of respect for human rights, and the rule of law, coming up with a precise, simple answer like that is impossible. This doesn't, however, prevent one from coming to a view that a country with the lovely characteristics of Russia might not make for a democracy, if you want to have a morally and practically relevant definition of democracy.

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blakamin

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#1707140 21-Jan-2017 20:22

cadman:

blakamin:

cadman:

gzt:
amiga500: Obama massively expanded the use of drones. For every terrorist the drones killed it has probably radicalised another 10.

This may be true. The tone of your post indicates that you expect these drone killings to stop under Trump. I don't see any reason that might be the case.

Did you see any reason why they might be expanded under Obama?

The rise of terror groups in the last 6 years?

It would've made no difference who the president was. ISIL(S) was nothing 10 years ago, they were "taliban" and Al queda".

Clearly that's in hindsight. However, he's claiming foresight.

From your quotes, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That @gzt was wrong??

My only point is that the POTUS really has no say in who gets droned... That is decided by the US military intelligence (rightly or wrongly), it's not like the person at the top really has a say in targets unless it's Osama/saddam/flavour-of-the-month. And then they're still just bystanders in the scheme of things.

Anyone that thinks Trumpet will stop drones has rocks in their head.

Stan

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#1707142 21-Jan-2017 20:27

dejadeadnz:

Stan: one might perhaps take you a bit more seriously if you would actually post some substantive contribution, instead of doing a blatant faux Socratic method by pretending to be making a genuine inquiry. Nothing that I have asserted requires me to conclusively establish the exact moment in time in which the western world as a whole became democratic. In fact, given the diversity of cultures, different levels of respect for human rights, and the rule of law, coming up with a precise, simple answer like that is impossible. This doesn't, however, prevent one from coming to a view that a country with the lovely characteristics of Russia might not make for a democracy, if you want to have a morally and practically relevant definition of democracy.

I do not think you understand my intentions (well how could you this is the internet) I am interested in the opinion you present despite your rather crass replies to my posts.

So as I understand it Russia = not a democracy due to its lower standard of LBGT rights and press freedom than say the USA?

Rikkitic

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#1707150 21-Jan-2017 20:40

In good democratic fashion, I have to vote with dejadeadnz on this one. A democracy is, and has to be, a system of self-governance that adheres to certain fundamental principles whether people are voting for them at that moment or not. A country that pursues policies on the basis of simple majority rule is a mob, not a democracy. Think Rwanda. At this time, in spite of Trump and those damned Tea Party conservatives, I would say that America is still more of a democracy than Russia. In fact, I am fervently hoping that the election of Trump will finally shut up all the right-wing whining about liberal media bias and unfair elections. They no longer have anything to complain about. They got their way and anything that goes wrong from now on is their own bloody fault!

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tdgeek

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#1707176 21-Jan-2017 20:47

Rikkitic:

In good democratic fashion, I have to vote with dejadeadnz on this one. A democracy is, and has to be, a system of self-governance that adheres to certain fundamental principles whether people are voting for them at that moment or not. A country that pursues policies on the basis of simple majority rule is a mob, not a democracy. Think Rwanda. At this time, in spite of Trump and those damned Tea Party conservatives, I would say that America is still more of a democracy than Russia. In fact, I am fervently hoping that the election of Trump will finally shut up all the right-wing whining about liberal media bias and unfair elections. They no longer have anything to complain about. They got their way and anything that goes wrong from now on is their own bloody fault!

I'd like us to agree, but no. Democracy is representation by the majority. It is not about the policies or principles that you or I or anyone else feel are appropriate.

Rikkitic

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#1707179 21-Jan-2017 20:50

Those principles are laid down in the Constitution. That is what it is for.

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dejadeadnz

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#1707203 21-Jan-2017 20:52

tdgeek:

I'd like us to agree, but no. Democracy is representation by the majority. It is not about the policies or principles that you or I or anyone else feel are appropriate.

Just have a little bit of respect for people. If you're going to join a discussion thread, do a bit better than just repeatedly asserting something as fact merely because you believe it to be so. No one needs to agree -- people going around pretending to enjoy singing kumbaya together isn't needed and is totally pointless -- but at least try and show some respect for others by advancing a defence of a genuine argument for what is an incredibly contentious assertion.

tdgeek

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#1707212 21-Jan-2017 20:55

Rikkitic:

Those principles are laid down in the Constitution. That is what it is for.

Fair enough. I've seen the Constitution at the Lincoln Memorial, didn't read it though. But thats the US, democracy is a general term of election by the people. The world does exist outside of the US, and that will certainly grow in the next 4 years.

tdgeek

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#1707218 21-Jan-2017 20:59

dejadeadnz:

tdgeek:

I'd like us to agree, but no. Democracy is representation by the majority. It is not about the policies or principles that you or I or anyone else feel are appropriate.

Just have a little bit of respect for people. If you're going to join a discussion thread, do a bit better than just repeatedly asserting something as fact merely because you believe it to be so. No one needs to agree -- people going around pretending to enjoy singing kumbaya together isn't needed and is totally pointless -- but at least try and show some respect for others by advancing a defence of a genuine argument for what is an incredibly contentious assertion.

Look in the mirror.

Contentious assertion?? Democracy is about election by the people. It is not about the US Constitution, unless you happen to be American, which is a small perctentile of the populous in the globe as you well know.

If we were American at geekzone.com, then you would be correct, but we are not.

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