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#1744699 20-Mar-2017 18:27

MikeAqua:

Fred99:

MikeAqua:

I object to the rape culture label strongly because it is another expression of the 'all men are rapists' viewpoint espoused by some feminists.

I really think that needs comment - and I don't want to argue some holy war on this subject.

The belief that some feminists (IMO very unwisely - if it happens) express that view in isolation, is likely a deliberate negative stereotype created to discredit feminism.

As far as I can tell, the origin of the expression is from a fictional character in Marilyn French's book "The Women's Room". It should be quoted in full:

"all men are rapists, and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes"

which in context of the experiences of the character in the novel may have been entirely appropriate, and had quite different impact than the abbreviated version in popular circulation amongst anti-feminists these days.

Not belief, fact. It's a verbatim quote from several feminists, a sign that gets used at feminist rallies and a hash tag.

Google and learn ...

You deliberately snipped / deleted context of what I posted. As it's now a new page - I've fixed that for you above.

"Several" feminists do not represent "fact" any more than your and my opinion represent "fact" about what all men think and say.

If I heard a feminist state what you say - I'd challenge her - not feminists.

Fred99

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#1744704 20-Mar-2017 18:36

toejam316:
Fred99:

Geektastic:

MikeB4:

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

Is it much worse than, say, the US or UK? Or Australia?

It does not seem to be - although I am not basing that on anything but general observation.

I expect very similar.

Comparative stats are almost meaningless when many (perhaps most - some claim 90% of) rapes are unreported.

Then where does that 90% come from?

http://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts

Myth: Most people report rape or sexual assault to the police.
Fact: The truth is that rape and sexual assault are two of the most underreported crimes in our society. Estimates show that between 50–90% of rapes go unreported. Factoring unreported rapes together with the odds of an arrest being made and the chances of getting a felony conviction, only 6% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. In other words: 15 of 16 rapists walk free.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples where those kind of figures are presented.

MikeAqua

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#1744713 20-Mar-2017 18:40

Fred99:

You deliberately snipped / deleted context of what I posted.

"Several" feminists do not represent "fact" any more than your and my opinion represent "fact" about what all men think and say.

If I heard a feminist state what you say - I'd challenge her - not feminists.

I truncated for brevity and to show precisely what I was responding to. Genuinely didn't think I was removing any relevant context, still don't.

By 'fact' I am referring to my assertion that some feminists use the phrase' all men are rapists'. You described this as belief but I suggested where you could find evidence that shows that statement as factual.

Mike

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#1744741 20-Mar-2017 19:25

Fred99:
toejam316:
Fred99:

Geektastic:

MikeB4:

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

Is it much worse than, say, the US or UK? Or Australia?

It does not seem to be - although I am not basing that on anything but general observation.

I expect very similar.

Comparative stats are almost meaningless when many (perhaps most - some claim 90% of) rapes are unreported.

Then where does that 90% come from?

http://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts

Myth: Most people report rape or sexual assault to the police.
Fact: The truth is that rape and sexual assault are two of the most underreported crimes in our society. Estimates show that between 50–90% of rapes go unreported. Factoring unreported rapes together with the odds of an arrest being made and the chances of getting a felony conviction, only 6% of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. In other words: 15 of 16 rapists walk free.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples where those kind of figures are presented.

Seems like a figure plucked from the air, to me. Estimates that have a delta of 40% are more in line with guestimates to me, and if you have a delta that big, once you throw a margin of error in you're really off.

Work with the information we have, and not the information that gets plucked from the air. It's much more fair to say that the metrics on rape/sexual assault are rough at best, due to report rates. Anything else is dishonest, and that's what puts me off in these sort of arguments. When you start adjusting and creating figures to support your claims, you're really undermining everything you say and do.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

Fred99

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#1744883 20-Mar-2017 21:39

toejam316:

Seems like a figure plucked from the air, to me.

Give it a rest. Rape is underreported. EOS.

Fred99

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#1744898 20-Mar-2017 21:47

MikeAqua:

I truncated for brevity.

And I FTFY, because I disagree with your opinion that a few "feminists" using the statement "all men are rapists" - which I'm very confident is a seriously truncated version of the origin of that statement - has any relevance to this topic.

On any contentious topic, there are extremists. I don't 100% agree that there is such a thing as "rape culture" in NZ, but some of the arguments being made by anti-feminists in this thread are concerning.

driller2000

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#1744918 20-Mar-2017 22:11

The vast majority of the posts above seems to me to be a bunch of guys arguing about "rape culture" and whether it exists or not.

Which misses the whole point IMO as it is a real problem that females face in our country every day - and as blokes we just have so little clue what that feels like because we are not the targets.

I am sure if you have have an honest discussion with females in your lives they will all be able to recount situations in their lives where they felt objectified, harassed, scared and more often than not were actually verbally, emotionally, mentally and physically attacked. I f&cken guarantee it.

And given this crap behaviour is so prevalent then we as a society need to ask:

- Why is this so?

- Are we ok with it? (and i bloody hope not)

- And what can we do about changing it?

If calling it rape culture "offends" you - so what - its not about you because you are one of the good guys - right? - so unbunch your panties - and do what you can to deal with the issue that allows such behaviours to prevail.

end rant/

Fred99

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#1744921 20-Mar-2017 22:14

driller2000:

end rant/

I vehemently disagree with those last two words.

That was not a rant - it was the truth!

Thank you.

Geektastic

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#1744934 20-Mar-2017 22:51

Fred99:

Geektastic:

MikeB4:

The term Rape Culture is inaccurate in NZ. Our culture does not condone rape, however we have an enduring cultural attitude that treats other sexes poorly. It is not as bad as it was 30 years ago but we still have a long way to go and this case is an example of this. Denying it enables the poor attitudes to continue.

Is it much worse than, say, the US or UK? Or Australia?

It does not seem to be - although I am not basing that on anything but general observation.

I expect very similar.

Comparative stats are almost meaningless when many (perhaps most - some claim 90% of) rapes are unreported.

Whether or not it's under reported isn't relevant to what I was trying to get at. The suggestion is that NZ has a special problem. Does it, or is it 'normal' for want of a better expression?

toejam316

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#1744936 20-Mar-2017 22:57

Thing is, it's all well and good to say "if you're not the problem, you don't need to worry" - except that by not actively repeating and championing anything extolled, you become part of the problem.

As for your list of questions, driller, I've got some answers for you.

"Why is this so?" Because some people are, for lack of a better way to put it, scummy pieces of so and so with no morals, solely in it for personal gains at all costs - leading to taking advantage of situations they perceive as ripe for picking, even though society disagrees.

"Are we okay with it?" It really depends on which we you fall into - if you fall into the we that isn't part of "us" (that is to say, those vehemently against rape culture, a fixture of modern western society), then yes, you're okay with it. If you fall into the we that has backed this horse to the fullest, then no, you're not okay with it. Sadly it seems that those of us who question the use of the phrase "rape culture", as it devalues the word rape and makes the whole thing a toxic minefield where there are only extremes to join, and scorched earth in the middle, seem to fall into the first "us", by the rulebook used by the second "us".

"And what can we do about changing it?" Uh, develop the technology required to implement The Minority Report in reality, so that we can pre-emptively capture thought criminals before they act, or maybe begin profiling all documented beings in such a way as to be able to accurately predict likely outcomes of offending, and then isolate/remove them from the world?

There just isn't a good way to deal with this - it's a sad reality. You can't "teach them not to rape", because the people who do this are inherently broken, socially - they've violated the norms, because in their mind those don't apply to them. You MAY be able to correct them, but you can't take back what those people have done, nor can you truly prevent what they might do.

Finally, "If calling it rape culture 'offends' you - so what - it's not about you because you're one of the good guys - right?" is basically "but, actually, you AREN'T a rapist, right? No problem! It's the rapists we're after! Just don't be a rapist and we're good!" - a pretty loaded statement when the reality is that anyone could potentially be a rapist, thanks to our lack of a hive mind.

Now, what would you recommend instead? Because, for me, I'd recommend learning self defense if you feel threatened, and staying out of situations you find threatening - both things I have personally done and will continue to do, because I'd rather not come into conflict. Fair enough, it's easier for a bloke because the threat of sexual assault is less, and the odds of being matched physically with any potential offenders are higher - but that doesn't mean it can't happen, so take step to protect yourself from it. I make sure my family knows to protect themselves and stay out of bad situations, simply because I know saying "Well, actually, you're a part of the rampant rape culture being perpetrated by society in this country" isn't actually going to make the sus fella who's about to commit a dodgy deed rethink himself, tuck his pecker away and go become a boon to society.

Now that's a bit of a rant.

Oh, and quick edit in aside - for rape being under reported, I'd like you to name one crime that is over-reported. Of course it's under reported, because in some instances the victims feel shame, guilt, and there are many other circumstances that could prevent a report from being made. A lot of crimes are like that. It's still deceptive to try and pluck statistics out of the air to drum up support for an argument that is bollocks - because fact is there's no argument here. No sane, healthy individual in our modern western society believes that rape is a good thing, or encourages it. I don't know if there's a single individual that's seen or heard this news and just had a revelation, a moment where they realized "Hey, actually, damn, maybe I SHOULDN'T go out there plotting to rape people, and maybe I SHOULDN'T rape people who're in a compromised position, or heck, even at all!"

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

Geektastic

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#1745093 21-Mar-2017 10:08

Over the past 50 years or so, a lot of social norms have been cast aside as 'old fashioned' or 'out-dated'.

It seems possible that the increase in poor behaviour between men and women, especially younger ones, is at least partly due to this.

It also stems I think from a much wider definition of rape. When I was growing up, rapists wore balaclavas and dragged women into dark alleyways at knifepoint. Today, sleeping with a woman who said yes last night and no this morning can get you in court for rape.

Just another reason I am glad not to be going through adolescence today!

At least in NZ the defendant has some chance of pre-conviction anonymity. There have been several cases in the UK in the last 12 months where the defendant was found not guilty but their name will be forever associated with the allegations as they get no anonymity at all, but the woman who accused them does. That really is unfair, as I am sure their lives will be considerably affected despite the adage of innocent until proven guilty.

dejadeadnz

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#1745101 21-Mar-2017 10:22

Geektastic:

When I was growing up, rapists wore balaclavas and dragged women into dark alleyways at knifepoint.

When you were growing up, people didn't even care for the notion that a married woman can refuse to consent to sex with her husband. You have been espousing some seriously appalling myths and anachronistic views regarding rape and sexual violence. Whether you care to accept this or not, intimate partner violence and non-consensual sexual contact within such a setting is a well-known problem. Some of us would prefer to live in the 21st century.

Geektastic

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#1745103 21-Mar-2017 10:24

dejadeadnz:

Geektastic:

When I was growing up, rapists wore balaclavas and dragged women into dark alleyways at knifepoint.

When you were growing up, people didn't even care for the notion that a married woman can refuse to consent to sex with her husband. You have been espousing some seriously appalling myths and anachronistic views regarding rape and sexual violence. Whether you care to accept this or not, intimate partner violence and non-consensual sexual contact within such a setting is a well-known problem. Some of us would prefer to live in the 21st century.

Go for it. I can assure you it's worse in a great many ways.

dejadeadnz

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#1745108 21-Mar-2017 10:38

Speaking for myself, I don't particularly care for the judgement of someone espousing the types of myths that you have been espousing.

MikeAqua

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#1745280 21-Mar-2017 17:18

driller2000:

If calling it rape culture "offends" you - so what - its not about you because you are one of the good guys - right? - so unbunch your panties - and do what you can to deal with the issue that allows such behaviours to prevail.

The problem with the rape culture trope is that it holds that there are no good guys. It is a deliberate, calculated insult to all law-abiding men.

The proponents of that trope then say "Hey all you men. Yes you lot who we just stereotyped as complicit in very serious and heinous criminal offending. We demand that you help us and our cause immediately" (deliberate hyperbole)

If you want someone to help you, agree with you or even just listen to to you ... calling them a rapist is not a good place to start.

Over and out.

Mike

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