Despair - Why aren't we protecting our kids!

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#1567048 7-Jun-2016 12:43

The problem is we have an underclass in our society who don't work and have no respect for anyone or anything. Unfortunately these feral a**holes breed like rabbits and get paid a fortune by the government to sit on their a$$ and the cycle continues with their kids doing the same.

Last week at our local Countdown I confronted a carload of these scumbags (3 girls and a guy), dressed in red and black clothing, playing some hideous music at obscene levels and throwing their rubbish out the car windows, just dumping stuff in the car park! They honestly had rubbish all around the car. I noticed this from the checkout and my blood boiled. I couldn't resist saying something so wandered over and got into a heated argument with them, then the guy got out and told me to 'f off'. He was much bigger than me and clearly was someone that didn't give a f*ck, so I obliged with his request, lol.

I'm going a bit off topic but its people like these that have unlicensed firearms lying around within reach of kids and have 3 day house parties with their mates while their kids are left to fend for themselves. I honestly believe that if we could remove this underclass or stop them breeding our country would be far better off.

networkn

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#1567062 7-Jun-2016 12:56

MileHighKiwi:

The problem is we have an underclass in our society who don't work and have no respect for anyone or anything. Unfortunately these feral a**holes breed like rabbits and get paid a fortune by the government to sit on their a$$ and the cycle continues with their kids doing the same.

Last week at our local Countdown I confronted a carload of these scumbags (3 girls and a guy), dressed in red and black clothing, playing some hideous music at obscene levels and throwing their rubbish out the car windows, just dumping stuff in the car park! They honestly had rubbish all around the car. I noticed this from the checkout and my blood boiled. I couldn't resist saying something so wandered over and got into a heated argument with them, then the guy got out and told me to 'f off'. He was much bigger than me and clearly was someone that didn't give a f*ck, so I obliged with his request, lol.

I'm going a bit off topic but its people like these that have unlicensed firearms lying around within reach of kids and have 3 day house parties with their mates while their kids are left to fend for themselves. I honestly believe that if we could remove this underclass or stop them breeding our country would be far better off.

Heh, well I am not sure what you consider being paid a "fortune" as being, but I don't know many beneficiaries who are getting rich that way!

Chances are, you didn't change anything by confronting them that way, be careful doing it, you could end up a statistic.

Rikkitic

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#1567099 7-Jun-2016 13:36

More to the point, what serious answers does anyone have to change this? I mean serious, realistic, payable, politically acceptable answers that wouldn't get us banned as international pariahs. In other words, you can't just say sterilise everyone who doesn't have a job or allow dairy owners to shoot on sight. What do you do to turn things around?

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#1567103 7-Jun-2016 13:43

networkn:

MileHighKiwi:

The problem is we have an underclass in our society who don't work and have no respect for anyone or anything. Unfortunately these feral a**holes breed like rabbits and get paid a fortune by the government to sit on their a$$ and the cycle continues with their kids doing the same.

Last week at our local Countdown I confronted a carload of these scumbags (3 girls and a guy), dressed in red and black clothing, playing some hideous music at obscene levels and throwing their rubbish out the car windows, just dumping stuff in the car park! They honestly had rubbish all around the car. I noticed this from the checkout and my blood boiled. I couldn't resist saying something so wandered over and got into a heated argument with them, then the guy got out and told me to 'f off'. He was much bigger than me and clearly was someone that didn't give a f*ck, so I obliged with his request, lol.

I'm going a bit off topic but its people like these that have unlicensed firearms lying around within reach of kids and have 3 day house parties with their mates while their kids are left to fend for themselves. I honestly believe that if we could remove this underclass or stop them breeding our country would be far better off.

Heh, well I am not sure what you consider being paid a "fortune" as being, but I don't know many beneficiaries who are getting rich that way!

Chances are, you didn't change anything by confronting them that way, be careful doing it, you could end up a statistic.

I would doubt many on the benefit enjoy their lifestyle.

The main problem is the only way out of the cycle of deprivation is education. As we have clearly seen in the latest budget education is on hold. So expect more of the same.

Naturally it's the children's fault for being born into deprivation, so any suggestions of stopping breading falls pretty close to Godwins Law.

So sorry to tell everyone, taxes have to go up to fund educators, pre-school services (Plunket & ECE) and schools in a more pragmatic way than how we are doing it today. Tomorrows schools has failed the bottom end. And the worse the bottom end does, the worse society does on a whole. We no longer in our egalitarian paradise anymore toto.

networkn

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#1567104 7-Jun-2016 13:43

Rikkitic:

More to the point, what serious answers does anyone have to change this? I mean serious, realistic, payable, politically acceptable answers that wouldn't get us banned as international pariahs. In other words, you can't just say sterilise everyone who doesn't have a job or allow dairy owners to shoot on sight. What do you do to turn things around?

Well it's interesting, my son is 6, whilst he can add/subtract/multiply/Divide do square roots and prime numbers read and write reasonably competently (and swam 10 lengths of a 25m pool in the weekend), the big difference between the education he and I got, was that there is so, so much more attention paid

to eating, food pyramid, care of the environment, looking after your health. He often looks at our meals and comments on the parts that are in the food pyramid in the wrong quantities, will occasionally refuse sweets because he has had enough and wants to be healthy etc. He comments when we aren't "moving" enough and doesn't resent (too much) the requirement for a good nights sleep. Whilst we try and instill this in him ourselves, the vast majority, has come from his primary school education.

The kids in his class are fairly similar in terms of that new type of education.

I think behaviours ARE changing for the better, but it will take another generation to see real change. There is no hope for rehabilitating the "lost" ones, your only feasible way forward is to get the kids coming through, to understand their choices, empower them with information and give them the best

chance to make different choices.

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#1567109 7-Jun-2016 13:48

Rikkitic:
More to the point, what serious answers does anyone have to change this? I mean serious, realistic, payable, politically acceptable answers that wouldn't get us banned as international pariahs. In other words, you can't just say sterilise everyone who doesn't have a job or allow dairy owners to shoot on sight. What do you do to turn things around?

If the answers were being read here this would be an in-house forum for institutions like the Stanford or Yale. It is an incredibly complex issues, there is no quick fix, there is no universal fix.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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networkn

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#1567111 7-Jun-2016 13:49

I would doubt many on the benefit enjoy their lifestyle.

The main problem is the only way out of the cycle of deprivation is education. As we have clearly seen in the latest budget education is on hold. So expect more of the same.

Naturally it's the children's fault for being born into deprivation, so any suggestions of stopping breading falls pretty close to Godwins Law.

So sorry to tell everyone, taxes have to go up to fund educators, pre-school services (Plunket & ECE) and schools in a more pragmatic way than how we are doing it today. Tomorrows schools has failed the bottom end. And the worse the bottom end does, the worse society does on a whole. We no longer in our egalitarian paradise anymore toto.

Ahem! No Sir, education is NOT on hold. They have asked the schools to be more efficient. If you have spent any time at the back end of a school, there is plenty of savings to be made. My son is getting the same education he was 6 months ago and whilst I think it's good if there is greater focus on education, blindly throwing money at the issue is NOT the solution. It's also worth noting that money HAS been allocated to building new classrooms, which are required for our ever increasing population. There a longer term (sort of) issue that teaching isn't attractive to new school leavers, due to low pay and increased focus on reporting and accountability.

It's a pretty vicious circle. To improve education, they require good quality reporting, but reporting takes a lot of time, and a lot of teachers spend less time teaching, to meet these reporting criteria.

Rikkitic

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#1567120 7-Jun-2016 14:00

It is encouraging to think that things are getting better and will improve in the long term. Accepting this is so, what can we do in the meantime with the lost ones like those kids at the supermarket? It seems a shame to just shut them up in prison for the rest of their lives. Is there no way to find something for them to do that would benefit them and not cause too much distress for the rest of us?

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networkn

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#1567122 7-Jun-2016 14:05

Rikkitic:

It is encouraging to think that things are getting better and will improve in the long term. Accepting this is so, what can we do in the meantime with the lost ones like those kids at the supermarket? It seems a shame to just shut them up in prison for the rest of their lives. Is there no way to find something for them to do that would benefit them and not cause too much distress for the rest of us?

The short answer is No, Sadly.

Identifying the reward that the behaviour gives them, and finding a way to communicate and have them be prepared to get a similar reward for different behaviour, falls outside of what most people can achieve.

Peer pressure is often the best method for this, (Not all peer pressure is bad and in fact the VAST VAST majority is really good), but it's having them see other people they care about making different choices and them wanting to be included enough to make similar changes.

There will always be those less fortunate, those who make bad choices and those who choose to blame others instead of taking responsibility for their own lives, and choices.

MikeB4

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#1567126 7-Jun-2016 14:14

Rikkitic:

It is encouraging to think that things are getting better and will improve in the long term. Accepting this is so, what can we do in the meantime with the lost ones like those kids at the supermarket? It seems a shame to just shut them up in prison for the rest of their lives. Is there no way to find something for them to do that would benefit them and not cause too much distress for the rest of us?

Until the population in general accepts that we all have a role to play in this we will not get past the first hurdle.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

frankv

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#1567134 7-Jun-2016 14:44

networkn:

I would doubt many on the benefit enjoy their lifestyle.

The main problem is the only way out of the cycle of deprivation is education. As we have clearly seen in the latest budget education is on hold. So expect more of the same.

Naturally it's the children's fault for being born into deprivation, so any suggestions of stopping breading falls pretty close to Godwins Law.

So sorry to tell everyone, taxes have to go up to fund educators, pre-school services (Plunket & ECE) and schools in a more pragmatic way than how we are doing it today. Tomorrows schools has failed the bottom end. And the worse the bottom end does, the worse society does on a whole. We no longer in our egalitarian paradise anymore toto.

Ahem! No Sir, education is NOT on hold. They have asked the schools to be more efficient. If you have spent any time at the back end of a school, there is plenty of savings to be made.

I think that *all* of this is reaping the seeds sown in the 1980s by Roger Douglas and his cronies. One of the reasons that the back end of education is so inefficient is that the people with the necessary skills have not been trained over the last 30 years. The same applies to every branch of the Public Service. This is exactly the same problem as all the tradies, which we're having to import from Ireland to rebuild Chch. FIVE YEARS after the earthquake. The destruction of the apprenticeship system and shifting of training costs to the individual were short-term savings for the Govt and employers which have undermined the country's ability to train its own workforce.

In similar vein.... my view is that the "underclass" has been put into a position where there is NO hope to escape their working poor/benefit situation. Education has failed the bottom end, so there's no escape that way. Tertiary education (including trades training) is just an invitation to get an enormous debt. And they haven't got much to lose by doing crimes; worst case they go to prison where they are fed and housed. The only escape (albeit temporary) is drugs and alcohol. And sex... and we know where that leads.

And I believe that the violence towards children is a reflection of that position. Someone who has no future and who is under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol is more likely to do violence. And, if their children are a drain on the parent's resources and drag on their lifestyle, with no counter-balancing pride in their children because they're (accurately) perceived to be losers with no future, why wouldn't the children be a target?

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#1567135 7-Jun-2016 14:50

networkn: Ahem! No Sir, education is NOT on hold. They have asked the schools to be more efficient. If you have spent any time at the back end of a school, there is plenty of savings to be made. My son is getting the same education he was 6 months ago and whilst I think it's good if there is greater focus on education, blindly throwing money at the issue is NOT the solution. It's also worth noting that money HAS been allocated to building new classrooms, which are required for our ever increasing population. There a longer term (sort of) issue that teaching isn't attractive to new school leavers, due to low pay and increased focus on reporting and accountability.

It's a pretty vicious circle. To improve education, they require good quality reporting, but reporting takes a lot of time, and a lot of teachers spend less time teaching, to meet these reporting criteria.

Ugh... To improve education you require quality reporting... Said no one who ever worked in education... ever. You obviously have never worked in the education sector or spent any time on a board of trustees at your local school. I especially doubt you would have worked in a Decile 1 - 3 school

Teachers never get into education because of the money, or the school holidays. They get into it because they love teaching our children and it's a dammed hard and underpaid job to boot. I have yet to meet a teacher who wasn't 110% dedicated to their job.

I highly recommend you watch they very recent article from Brian Bruce on World Class inside NZ Education.

Plus read the Teachers Union report on the Budget. You know, the guys who actually work in education.

http://teu.ac.nz/2016/06/scant-budget/

http://www.ppta.org.nz/resources/ppta-blog/a-new-dawn-or-a-new-disaster-funding-changes-in-budget-2016

It's not like teachers are saying "Oh my I never noticed these kids in my class had issues" they have known about them since the moment they started school and worked with them. I see little changes in the current direction in the latest budget apart from status quo.

So I re-iterate my previous statement of expect things to remain or get worse in regards to these events.

networkn

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#1567154 7-Jun-2016 15:02

BarTender:

Ugh... To improve education you require quality reporting... Said no one who ever worked in education... ever. You obviously have never worked in the education sector or spent any time on a board of trustees at your local school. I especially doubt you would have worked in a Decile 1 - 3 school

Teachers never get into education because of the money, or the school holidays. They get into it because they love teaching our children and it's a dammed hard and underpaid job to boot. I have yet to meet a teacher who wasn't 110% dedicated to their job.

I highly recommend you watch they very recent article from Brian Bruce on World Class inside NZ Education.

Plus read the Teachers Union report on the Budget. You know, the guys who actually work in education.

http://teu.ac.nz/2016/06/scant-budget/

http://www.ppta.org.nz/resources/ppta-blog/a-new-dawn-or-a-new-disaster-funding-changes-in-budget-2016

It's not like teachers are saying "Oh my I never noticed these kids in my class had issues" they have known about them since the moment they started school and worked with them. I see little changes in the current direction in the latest budget apart from status quo.

So I re-iterate my previous statement of expect things to remain or get worse in regards to these events.

Well, I'd have to disagree on your take on reporting being unnecessary. it's how you determine if your teaching is effective (at a broader level). It tells the people who aren't teachers that things aren't working well and changes need to be made. Teaching isn't significantly different from any other role, information is power. Parents in general want more information on how little Johnny is tracking, compared to his peers, and compared to the national averages. It's something I have heard from parents at school as well.

I am not saying teachers primary reason for education is money, but you can't pay your mortgage or feed your kids on the "love of teaching kids". My comments are based on what I heard being said by the head of the principals association on national radio a few weeks ago and was separately mentioned by the principal of the school my son attends, that they are having trouble getting new teachers and one of the BIG factors was low pay. You can take it up with him if you disagree, however, it makes sense that it's a factor.

I don't disagree teaching is a difficult and largely thankless job, but to suggest the only way to improve the current situation, is to get central govt to up the budget, doesn't make sense.

Every industry is being asked to be more efficient and do more with less. You can't tell me that in every case, this hasn't led to positive improvements for all concerned.

MikeB4

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#1567163 7-Jun-2016 15:15

There needs to be changes in health, education and attitudes. The later will take decades. Education in my very humble opinion needs fundamental changes. What is the point in teaching a young person who wants to be say a plumber french

higher Math or Geography at secondary school. Teach them about the skills he/she will need to do the job thus giving them a better chance to gain employment. However that is not going to stop them being violent etc, that is attitude changing and needs specialist help and education in order to break the cycles. Domestic violence, abuse, neglect or any violence is not a socio-economic problem it is a problem full top.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#1567170 7-Jun-2016 15:25

MikeB4:

There needs to be changes in health, education and attitudes. The later will take decades. Education in my very humble opinion needs fundamental changes. What is the point in teaching a young person who wants to be say a plumber french

higher Math or Geography at secondary school. Teach them about the skills he/she will need to do the job thus giving them a better chance to gain employment. However that is not going to stop them being violent etc, that is attitude changing and needs specialist help and education in order to break the cycles. Domestic violence, abuse, neglect or any violence is not a socio-economic problem it is a problem full top.

People change their minds on what they want to be at all stages of their life. Why limit what you teach someone based on what they say at 13? I wanted to be a police officer and a teacher but ended up in IT. Also, plumbers travel, and there is no reason that French couldn't be useful.

At school we had to take 1 term of foreign language and there were 3 choices. I think kids should be encouraged to learn all sorts of things.

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