Wellington College students suspended

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#1745296 21-Mar-2017 17:42

Personally, in a world where members of my sex commit the overwhelming number of violent crimes -- and sex crimes in particular -- if someone from the other side wants to (I am only granting this for the sake of the argument) be a bit melodramatic and what not to draw attention to this reality, I think the much more morally responsible thing to do is to face up to the reality that the male species remain shockingly violent. Soothing over my own bruised feelings wouldn't be my priority.

To each their own. But as a guy who holds progressive social values dearly, the "contributions" of a few males here has reminded me why I overwhelmingly prefer the company of female friends.

mudguard

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#1745313 21-Mar-2017 18:52

driller2000:

Which misses the whole point IMO as it is a real problem that females face in our country every day - and as blokes we just have so little clue what that feels like because we are not the targets.

So you're saying women are facing this possibility every day? That around every corner, day and night there's a rapist waiting?

driller2000:I am sure if you have have an honest discussion with females in your lives they will all be able to recount situations in their lives where they felt objectified, harassed, scared and more often than not were actually verbally, emotionally, mentally and physically attacked. I f&cken guarantee it.

I too have felt scared, been attacked verbally, mentally and physically attacked. Was this an example of violent culture? Once a on a football field someone objected to a clean sliding tackle (someone considerably bigger than I) and I remember wondering what the rest of my team were doing during this exchange. He apologised after the game and we even had a beer. I've been verbally abused by a boss who was in a bad mood, and I got punched in the back of the head once in a bar. For no reason. I didn't even see him/her.

Is this a culture of violence, or a collection of incidents in 15 years among thousands of completely innocent interactions.

driller2000:

If calling it rape culture "offends" you - so what - its not about you because you are one of the good guys - right? - so unbunch your panties - and do what you can to deal with the issue that allows such behaviours to prevail.

What can I do? I'll suggest to my male friends to stop raping. I mean given it's our culture then some of them must be doing it between paying off student loans, paying rent, raising kids, not saving a house deposit and working three jobs.

dejadeadnz:

Personally, in a world where members of my sex commit the overwhelming number of violent crimes -- and sex crimes in particular -- if someone from the other side wants to (I am only granting this for the sake of the argument) be a bit melodramatic and what not to draw attention to this reality, I think the much more morally responsible thing to do is to face up to the reality that the male species remain shockingly violent.

Well in addition to shockingly violent to may as well just add rape prone.

dejadeadnz

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#1745318 21-Mar-2017 18:59

Well, here comes another man who's butthurt over his lot's terrible behaviour. No -- no one here is saying everyone is a rapist. I'd just suggest you spend a bit more time worrying about reducing violence and rape than worrying about your frayed feelings.

mudguard

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#1745322 21-Mar-2017 19:21

dejadeadnz:
Well, here comes another man who's butthurt over his lot's terrible behaviour. No -- no one here is saying everyone is a rapist. I'd just suggest you spend a bit more time worrying about reducing violence and rape than worrying about your frayed feelings.

Could I not be female?

Violent behaviour is already illegal, as is rape. We increasingly see a more punitive approach on sports where thuggery was tolerated to an extent.

What can be done? I'm sure there are initiatives, but can you stamp these behaviours out completely? Of course not, I don't know what the stats are on rape, what is an acceptable number per capita? Zero ideally, but it won't be possible, which is not say that it is still acceptable. But to imply that there is culture is an exaggeration.
Actually I stand corrected, after reading the definition of culture, it doesn't state a number other than it's plural. So two people flattening card board boxes could have a culture of flattening boxes.

So we absolutely have a rape culture.

toejam316

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#1745324 21-Mar-2017 19:25

We have a murder culture, too. And a robbery culture. And a violet assault culture. In the context culture is used in the phrase rape culture, almost any word can be substituted.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

gzt

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#1745402 21-Mar-2017 22:04

Some excellent reporting from Alison Mau:

Sorcha told me she and her friends have been yelled at and propositioned in the street since around the age of 11.

"It teaches you that you're helpless in your sexuality, that you're something to be viewed. Once I accidentally bumped into an old man on a bus. I apologised and his friend goes to me, 'Don't worry, you're the best he's had all day'. Flippant, sexual and degrading comments like those are passed around regularly."

She says it's common for people to take advantage of others when they're drunk. It happens to boys and girls, she says (are you surprised?) and there's "a disgusting double standard" where there's less of an outrage when a girl takes advantage of a guy.

Sorcha talks about the "familiar anxiety (girls) feel when we're walking alone at night, every time we hear a car approaching and have to listen to see if it's going to slow down beside us or just drive past. Walking up a driveway and pretending to go into a house every time we feel like a car is following us. We've all been taught since we were so young . . . don't separate from the group. Don't stay out too late. Don't wear anything too revealing."

Geektastic

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#1745405 21-Mar-2017 22:21

gzt: Some excellent reporting from Alison Mau:

Sorcha told me she and her friends have been yelled at and propositioned in the street since around the age of 11.

"It teaches you that you're helpless in your sexuality, that you're something to be viewed. Once I accidentally bumped into an old man on a bus. I apologised and his friend goes to me, 'Don't worry, you're the best he's had all day'. Flippant, sexual and degrading comments like those are passed around regularly."

She says it's common for people to take advantage of others when they're drunk. It happens to boys and girls, she says (are you surprised?) and there's "a disgusting double standard" where there's less of an outrage when a girl takes advantage of a guy.

Sorcha talks about the "familiar anxiety (girls) feel when we're walking alone at night, every time we hear a car approaching and have to listen to see if it's going to slow down beside us or just drive past. Walking up a driveway and pretending to go into a house every time we feel like a car is following us. We've all been taught since we were so young . . . don't separate from the group. Don't stay out too late. Don't wear anything too revealing."

As soon as I meet a man who claims that a woman took advantage of him when he was drunk, something that must be rarer than unicorns, I will ask him if he objected....

toejam316

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#1745407 21-Mar-2017 22:22

If you haven't felt those fears as a man, you've either been very sheltered and lucky or very stupid. The difference is men are expected to get on with it. Obviously the sexual element is less pronounced, but instead replaced with violence and dominance.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

Geektastic

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#1745436 21-Mar-2017 22:29

toejam316: If you haven't felt those fears as a man, you've either been very sheltered and lucky or very stupid. The difference is men are expected to get on with it. Obviously the sexual element is less pronounced, but instead replaced with violence and dominance.

I've certainly never had a woman try and take advantage of me when I was drunk, that is for sure.

EDIT - when I did not want her to, I should add!

Fred99

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#1745468 21-Mar-2017 23:04

MikeAqua:

driller2000:

If calling it rape culture "offends" you - so what - its not about you because you are one of the good guys - right? - so unbunch your panties - and do what you can to deal with the issue that allows such behaviours to prevail.

The problem with the rape culture trope is that it holds that there are no good guys. It is a deliberate, calculated insult to all law-abiding men.

The proponents of that trope then say "Hey all you men. Yes you lot who we just stereotyped as complicit in very serious and heinous criminal offending. We demand that you help us and our cause immediately" (deliberate hyperbole)

If you want someone to help you, agree with you or even just listen to to you ... calling them a rapist is not a good place to start.

Over and out.

No, the problem with the "rape culture trope" is that you've apparently elected to take an interpretation that it's a deliberate calculated personal insult, and cry about it.

Same way you elected to take a statement made by some few feminists that "all men are rapists" as indicative of all feminism, I tried to tell you that it wasn't, and gave you some history as to the origin of that expression and how it's been selectively quoted out of context by a few extreme (and poorly educated) radicals - and you threw that straight back in my face.

Feminists may be "liberals", but liberals are not extremists.

Get over it. Most violent crime is committed by men, most men are good guys, but that (violence by men) is still a cultural problem.

I'm quite happy with the term "rape culture" as representative of at best a blind eye turned by a significant number of men (and some women) to the issue throughout western society.

Look at how many conservatives "forgave" or "overlooked" Donald Trump's "pussy grabbing" comments as "locker room talk all men do" and voted for him regardless. That, apparently, didn't transcend some movable cultural boundary. Unbelievable.

toejam316

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#1745492 22-Mar-2017 00:33

The problem with your argument is it's a double sided blade - whenever you are making an argument like this, try swapping genders out, or replace it with another group feature, like race, religion or skin-tone.

If it's offensive in one form, it's offensive in all forms.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

dickytim

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#1745515 22-Mar-2017 06:19

The problem is feminism, this seems to have gone from a women should have equal rights to a females are superior and all men are scum.

There is no place in society for that but we keep accepting it, if there were masculism or mascuism which ever is appropriate then I bet there would be an out cry.

I firmly believe in woman's rights to equality with men, the same pay for the same job, the ability for my daughter to walk around without being raped, abused or otherwise victimised

I also firmly believe that this right needs to exist for men.

dickytim

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#1745516 22-Mar-2017 06:21

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Interesting, now reverse it and replace men where it refers to women...

gzt

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#1745529 22-Mar-2017 07:39

Partial repost:

Some excellent reporting from Alison Mau:: Sorcha told me she and her friends have been yelled at and propositioned in the street since around the age of 11.

"It teaches you that you're helpless in your sexuality, that you're something to be viewed. Once I accidentally bumped into an old man on a bus. I apologised and his friend goes to me, 'Don't worry, you're the best he's had all day'. Flippant, sexual and degrading comments like those are passed around regularly.

It's obvious there is a problem. It's not hard to see most of this behaviour including the Facebook comments as part of a category. There are a variety of attitudes that need to change. Education has a part to play in that.

frankv

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#1745563 22-Mar-2017 09:42

dejadeadnz:

Personally, in a world where members of my sex commit the overwhelming number of violent crimes -- and sex crimes in particular -- if someone from the other side wants to (I am only granting this for the sake of the argument) be a bit melodramatic and what not to draw attention to this reality, I think the much more morally responsible thing to do is to face up to the reality that the male species remain shockingly violent.

I don't know about violent crime in general. But the Dunedin Study is fairly clear that in domestic violence (a) women initiate it about as much as men, and (b) perpetrators are usually also victims.

In this context, labelling the male species [sic] as "shockingly violent" is neither morally responsible nor facing reality. Instead, it leads to males being locked up by default, skewing statistics, and perpetuating the myth. To add insult to injury, any number of TV campaigns and study groups and melodrama and exaggeration and white ribbons won't actually change things. And there's a whole industry that depends on this myth for funding.

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