Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

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#801408 18-Apr-2013 10:40

6FIEND:
KiwiNZ: @ 6FIEND I suggest you read the thread

Oh, I've read the thread. It goes like this:
1) Should we have race-based aid?
2) Yes we should because a particular race features disproportionately in the 'bad' stats
3) Shall we examine why that is?
4) No. But it obviously means that 'society' has treated these people unfairly. To insinuate anything else would be skating on thin ice.
5) What about the other people who also feature in all the 'bad' stats? Shouldn't we help them too?
6) Don't be silly.

And I've read plenty of responses from certain contributors trying to make it personal, spoiling for a fight, trolling for the faintest whiff of injustice or ignorance to pounce on. I've read plenty of arguments along the lines of "more of group A are suffering than group B, so we must help group A exclusively!" which i find extremely distasteful.

Jaundiced and inaccurate summary of the discussion.

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#801426 18-Apr-2013 10:47

KiwiNZ:
Yes there are other groups that are disadvantages however the topic of this thread is ..."Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?"
So to provide race specific grants etc under affirmative action is a good vehicle to target assistance to those needing it from that particular group.

As for the needs of other groups eg Disabled, that is a topic for another thread.

There is some seriously dysfunctional logic being applied here!

1) All disabled people are disadvantaged. Able-bodied (and minded) persons do not factor.
2) NOT all Maori are (insert bad statistic of choice here) - only a larger proportion of them than other groups.

Why would you insist on restricting your target audience for aid to a particular race of people? (when there are plenty within that race that don't need it - and plenty of others who do.)
That's what the thread is about.

I'm sure that you wouldn't be in favour of having Schools, or Scholarships, (or even Hospitals or Electoral Roles) that Maori were not eligible to be part of. Why should there be any racial discrimination in New Zealand?

MikeB4

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#801430 18-Apr-2013 10:52

6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
Yes there are other groups that are disadvantages however the topic of this thread is ..."Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?"
So to provide race specific grants etc under affirmative action is a good vehicle to target assistance to those needing it from that particular group.

As for the needs of other groups eg Disabled, that is a topic for another thread.

There is some seriously dysfunctional logic being applied here!

1) All disabled people are disadvantaged. Able-bodied (and minded) persons do not factor.
2) NOT all Maori are (insert bad statistic of choice here) - only a larger proportion of them than other groups.

Why would you insist on restricting your target audience for aid to a particular race of people? (when there are plenty within that race that don't need it - and plenty of others who do.)
That's what the thread is about.

I'm sure that you wouldn't be in favour of having Schools, or Scholarships, (or even Hospitals or Electoral Roles) that Maori were not eligible to be part of. Why should there be any racial discrimination in New Zealand?

I DID NOT say I would just target one groupI did say this thread was about ONE target group, again read again my post.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

6FIEND

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#801450 18-Apr-2013 11:00

KiwiNZ:
I DID NOT say I would just target one groupI did say this thread was about ONE target group, again read again my post.

You're right - I'm sorry for the inappropriate use of the word "you". I did not mean to insinuate that that was your personal intent.

Please re-read my post substituting "anyone" for the word "you".

Eg. "Why would anyone insist on restricting aid..."

MikeB4

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#801453 18-Apr-2013 11:03

6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
I DID NOT say I would just target one groupI did say this thread was about ONE target group, again read again my post.

You're right - I'm sorry for the inappropriate use of the word "you". I did not mean to insinuate that that was your personal intent.

Please re-read my post substituting "anyone" for the word "you".

Eg. "Why would anyone insist on restricting aid..."

When there is finite funds available it is logical to target the assistance to those with the greater need.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

6FIEND

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#801460 18-Apr-2013 11:15

KiwiNZ:
When there is finite funds available it is logical to target the assistance to those with the greater need.

Interesting... so, with Race-based Scholarships - is the scholarship awarded to:
a) The worst performing students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest academic need)
b) The poorest students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest financial need)
c) The best performing students of that race? (ie. those least requiring academic aid relative to their peers and irrespective of socio-economic factors)
d) Some other selection criteria?

(I'm asking from a position of acknowledged ignorance with respect to how these scholarships are granted.)

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#801470 18-Apr-2013 11:24

6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
When there is finite funds available it is logical to target the assistance to those with the greater need.

Interesting... so, with Race-based Scholarships - is the scholarship awarded to:
a) The worst performing students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest academic need)
b) The poorest students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest financial need)
c) The best performing students of that race? (ie. those least requiring academic aid relative to their peers and irrespective of socio-economic factors)
d) Some other selection criteria?

(I'm asking from a position of acknowledged ignorance with respect to how these scholarships are granted.)

The logic would dictate that they are assigned based on greatest need and greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment and the greater good. If it is a positive return it is of benefit to all New Zealand.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Kyanar

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#801486 18-Apr-2013 11:40

KiwiNZ:
The logic would dictate that they are assigned based on greatest need and greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment and the greater good. If it is a positive return it is of benefit to all New Zealand.

Hang on, these two ideals do not necessarily meet. Is the ultimate goal the greatest benefit to New Zealand, or the greatest individual need? If it's based on individual need, then excluding those with less of a need but a greater benefit cancels out the positive return, but if it's based on greatest national benefit then individual need should be cancelled out by the positive return.

Either it's based on an individual (or socio-economic group's) needs, or it's based on national benefit. Which is it?

MikeB4

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#801493 18-Apr-2013 11:43

Kyanar:
KiwiNZ:
The logic would dictate that they are assigned based on greatest need and greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment and the greater good. If it is a positive return it is of benefit to all New Zealand.

Hang on, these two ideals do not necessarily meet. Is the ultimate goal the greatest benefit to New Zealand, or the greatest individual need? If it's based on individual need, then excluding those with less of a need but a greater benefit cancels out the positive return, but if it's based on greatest national benefit then individual need should be cancelled out by the positive return.

Either it's based on an individual (or socio-economic group's) needs, or it's based on national benefit. Which is it?

If assistance is targeted to a group of greatest need and as a result of that assistance they are no longer a group of greatest need then it is a positive return for all New Zealand.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

6FIEND

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#801524 18-Apr-2013 12:22

KiwiNZ:
6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
When there is finite funds available it is logical to target the assistance to those with the greater need.

Interesting... so, with Race-based Scholarships - is the scholarship awarded to:
a) The worst performing students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest academic need)
b) The poorest students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest financial need)
c) The best performing students of that race? (ie. those least requiring academic aid relative to their peers and irrespective of socio-economic factors)
d) Some other selection criteria?

(I'm asking from a position of acknowledged ignorance with respect to how these scholarships are granted.)

The logic would dictate that they are assigned based on greatest need and greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment and the greater good. If it is a positive return it is of benefit to all New Zealand.

Ahh... Fortune, favour and opportunity are bestowed upon the already successful or noteworthy people of a particular race while the widespread under-achievement of their people is held up as the justification for it.

Now we are beginning to scratch the surface of why race-based policy is (and has been) ineffectual in practice as well as being bad in principle.

MikeB4

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#801534 18-Apr-2013 12:26

6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
When there is finite funds available it is logical to target the assistance to those with the greater need.

Interesting... so, with Race-based Scholarships - is the scholarship awarded to:
a) The worst performing students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest academic need)
b) The poorest students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest financial need)
c) The best performing students of that race? (ie. those least requiring academic aid relative to their peers and irrespective of socio-economic factors)
d) Some other selection criteria?

(I'm asking from a position of acknowledged ignorance with respect to how these scholarships are granted.)

The logic would dictate that they are assigned based on greatest need and greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment and the greater good. If it is a positive return it is of benefit to all New Zealand.

Ahh... Fortune, favour and opportunity are bestowed upon the already successful or noteworthy people of a particular race while the widespread under-achievement of their people is held up as the justification for it.

Now we are beginning to scratch the surface of why race-based policy is (and has been) ineffectual in practice as well as being bad in principle.

how on earth did you interpret as the exact opposite of the meaning of targeted assistance. I suspect you are being deliberately disingenuous.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Klipspringer

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#801550 18-Apr-2013 12:30

qwerty7:
How are we suppose to live as one equal if there are race specific scholarships and grants? Is that not segregation (Racial segregation is separation of humans into racial groups in daily life.)

Exactly.

One only has to look at the mess in South Africa and the continual downward spiral into decay to realise that this type of thing just does not work.
Affirmative action is an example and its remarkably similar to this race segregation in NZ.

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#801558 18-Apr-2013 12:36

Klipspringer:
qwerty7:
How are we suppose to live as one equal if there are race specific scholarships and grants? Is that not segregation (Racial segregation is separation of humans into racial groups in daily life.)

Exactly.

One only has to look at the mess in South Africa and the continual downward spiral into decay to realise that this type of thing just does not work.
Affirmative action is an example and its remarkably similar to this race segregation in NZ.

there is a huge difference between targeted assistance and segregation.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

LookingUp

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#801566 18-Apr-2013 12:39

KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
qwerty7:
How are we suppose to live as one equal if there are race specific scholarships and grants? Is that not segregation (Racial segregation is separation of humans into racial groups in daily life.)

Exactly.

One only has to look at the mess in South Africa and the continual downward spiral into decay to realise that this type of thing just does not work.
Affirmative action is an example and its remarkably similar to this race segregation in NZ.

there is a huge difference between targeted assistance and segregation.

I'd suggest it depends on what side of the "targeted assistance" you fall. If you're outside the assistance criteria I'd argue you're segregated.

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#801585 18-Apr-2013 12:55

KiwiNZ:
6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
When there is finite funds available it is logical to target the assistance to those with the greater need.

Interesting... so, with Race-based Scholarships - is the scholarship awarded to:
a) The worst performing students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest academic need)
b) The poorest students of that race? (ie. those with the greatest financial need)
c) The best performing students of that race? (ie. those least requiring academic aid relative to their peers and irrespective of socio-economic factors)
d) Some other selection criteria?

(I'm asking from a position of acknowledged ignorance with respect to how these scholarships are granted.)

The logic would dictate that they are assigned based on greatest need and greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment and the greater good. If it is a positive return it is of benefit to all New Zealand.

Ahh... Fortune, favour and opportunity are bestowed upon the already successful or noteworthy people of a particular race while the widespread under-achievement of their people is held up as the justification for it.

Now we are beginning to scratch the surface of why race-based policy is (and has been) ineffectual in practice as well as being bad in principle.

how on earth did you interpret as the exact opposite of the meaning of targeted assistance. I suspect you are being deliberately disingenuous.

Not at all deliberately disingenuous, but obviously mistaken by what you meant... (and mis-lead by the words, "greatest benefit ensuring the maximum return on the investment") So, would I be correct in thinking that you meant that the scholarships & grants would be given to those from the poorest families and/or to those with the poorest academic performance? (Within the targetted race)

If so, then I would suggest that there are two fundamental problems with that approach:
1) At the risk of repeating myself - Why not just target ALL the poorest families or the worst academic performers with the grants/scholarships instead of only targeting those from a particular race?
2) Grants & Scholarships are precisely the wrong tool to use to raise the lowest common denominator. These are tools to recognize, reward and nurture EXCELLENCE and are ill-suited to helping the illiterate & inumerate tail of our education system.

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