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Stan
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  #1707321 22-Jan-2017 10:45
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Dratsab:

 

tdgeek: But democracy is an election by the people, different countries may have differing beliefs, but that is their culture, its not a democratic thing. 

 

This view is extremely simplistic and this simplicity makes the view incorrect. You need to expand things out to come to a more accurate view, like Handle9 has done.

 

Handle9: To have an effective democracy you need to have more than just a regular vote. To effectively inform the electorate you need a free Press. You need to have free speech to allow dissent. You can't have a secret police who suppresses all dissidents.

If all you is a regular vote you just have an autocracy masquerading as a democracy. A true democracy allows other candidates to put forward their point of view. An autocracy doesn't.

 

And you also have to have free voting with booths that aren't closely monitored by FSB agents.

 

Those who think Russia is a democracy, rather than an autocracy need to read up a little. Here's a partial list of suspicious deaths under Putin - read through the links as well. Here's an article about Russia's human rights crackdown, it 2 years old but still very relevant and, again, has some interesting links - especially in relation to the "blogger law". There are literally hundreds of thousands more informative links.

 

As for populism: when you control the state, when you control the media, when you control voting, when you [to a large degree] control dissention* through extreme violence - it becomes very easy to become 'wildly popular'.

 

EDIT: *I'm including views/speech/writing from opposition political parties in the term 'dissention'.

 

 

 

 

By that notion the USA has not been a democracy for very long if at all considering all the information that has come to light about the CIA influencing the media and elections. 

 

Also if we are going to jump into conspiracy theory's lets analyse this one (PDF file) 




MikeB4
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  #1707323 22-Jan-2017 10:48
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Stan: Also if we are going to jump into conspiracy theory's lets analyse this one  

 



Please don't make links to auto downloads


dafman
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  #1707325 22-Jan-2017 10:54
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BREAKING NEWS

 

Apology for interrupting thread, but news is just coming through of an car explosion in Wellington CBD. Early reports are that the four occupants, a male and female adults and two children, were killed instantly in the explosion. Several pedestrians, number unknown, have also reportedly been critically injured. Reporters on the scene say that car is believed to be owned by a local Wellingtonian, well-known for his outspoken views on the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

 

The above is obviously fiction, but imagine how outraged New Zealander's would be if a foreign country started routinely executing our citizens on our streets at will. Imagine how enraged any western country would be, particularly the US, if this were to become common place in their backyard.

 

Yet, this is what the US currently does routinely around the world in other sovereign countries. The US military routinely executes men, woman and children, from afar, without trial, or any requirement whatsoever to publicly provide any justification for the killing.

 

And a lot of us don't even give this practice of routine murder a thought. Many of us even endorse it.

 

The title of this thread is good riddance to Obama and his drones. Sadly, having just listened to President Trump this morning, it sounds like this practice only just begun.




tdgeek
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  #1707335 22-Jan-2017 11:02
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Majority vote, free Press, free speech. Thats a democracy, ok. Muldoon choose to ignore free press by expelling Tom Scott. Trump told Fox News he will choose the reporters for his coverage. That is two countries who do not act as a democracy. Minority rights, equality, that probably covers many of the other democracies.

Majority vote is simplistic, yes. As long as voting is not corrupt that's a fair democracy. All of the other freedoms that apparently are required also, do not exist in reality. While the freedom and equality is clearly very present in many parts of society, the opposite is very common. If there was a communist or socialist or autocratic state that actually did promote equality that would probably be a better place for the masses.

Anyhoo, I'm off to paint


dafman
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  #1707341 22-Jan-2017 11:09
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tdgeek: Majority vote, free Press, free speech. Thats a democracy, ok. Muldoon choose to ignore free press by expelling Tom Scott. Trump told Fox News he will choose the reporters for his coverage. That is two countries who do not act as a democracy. Minority rights, equality, that probably covers many of the other democracies.

Majority vote is simplistic, yes. As long as voting is not corrupt that's a fair democracy. All of the other freedoms that apparently are required also, do not exist in reality. While the freedom and equality is clearly very present in many parts of society, the opposite is very common. If there was a communist or socialist or autocratic state that actually did promote equality that would probably be a better place for the masses.

Anyhoo, I'm off to paint

 

yourself into a corner? (-;


Stan
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  #1707343 22-Jan-2017 11:12
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gzt:
Various mobile browsers including Chrome trigger a download for PDF.

 

 

 

There you go added PDF to the post just for you :)


tdgeek
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  #1707390 22-Jan-2017 12:12
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dafman:

tdgeek: Majority vote, free Press, free speech. Thats a democracy, ok. Muldoon choose to ignore free press by expelling Tom Scott. Trump told Fox News he will choose the reporters for his coverage. That is two countries who do not act as a democracy. Minority rights, equality, that probably covers many of the other democracies.

Majority vote is simplistic, yes. As long as voting is not corrupt that's a fair democracy. All of the other freedoms that apparently are required also, do not exist in reality. While the freedom and equality is clearly very present in many parts of society, the opposite is very common. If there was a communist or socialist or autocratic state that actually did promote equality that would probably be a better place for the masses.

Anyhoo, I'm off to paint


yourself into a corner? (-;



Consider the freedoms and equality that exists. Two leaders as mentioned didn't have a bar of it. Preaching equality doesn't mean squat if democratic countries are rife with inequality

 
 
 

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).
Rikkitic
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  #1707393 22-Jan-2017 12:19
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There seems to be a degree of incoherence creeping into this discussion.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


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  #1707449 22-Jan-2017 14:37
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tdgeek: Majority vote, free Press, free speech. Thats a democracy, ok. Muldoon choose to ignore free press by expelling Tom Scott. Trump told Fox News he will choose the reporters for his coverage. That is two countries who do not act as a democracy. Minority rights, equality, that probably covers many of the other democracies.

Majority vote is simplistic, yes. As long as voting is not corrupt that's a fair democracy. All of the other freedoms that apparently are required also, do not exist in reality. While the freedom and equality is clearly very present in many parts of society, the opposite is very common. If there was a communist or socialist or autocratic state that actually did promote equality that would probably be a better place for the masses.

Anyhoo, I'm off to paint

 

 

 

It would appear that you are trolling now. Comparing a journalist being excluded from a press pool to journalists being arrested and secret police controlling elections really is drawing a long bow.

 

The protests going on at the moment are a sign of a democracy working as opposed to what went on around the Sochi Olympics.


freitasm
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  #1707453 22-Jan-2017 14:56
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If you think this war mongering President will be "better" than Obama in your opinion when it comes to war strategy, think again:






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tdgeek
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  #1707479 22-Jan-2017 16:06
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Handle9:

tdgeek: Majority vote, free Press, free speech. Thats a democracy, ok. Muldoon choose to ignore free press by expelling Tom Scott. Trump told Fox News he will choose the reporters for his coverage. That is two countries who do not act as a democracy. Minority rights, equality, that probably covers many of the other democracies.

Majority vote is simplistic, yes. As long as voting is not corrupt that's a fair democracy. All of the other freedoms that apparently are required also, do not exist in reality. While the freedom and equality is clearly very present in many parts of society, the opposite is very common. If there was a communist or socialist or autocratic state that actually did promote equality that would probably be a better place for the masses.

Anyhoo, I'm off to paint


 


It would appear that you are trolling now. Comparing a journalist being excluded from a press pool to journalists being arrested and secret police controlling elections really is drawing a long bow.


The protests going on at the moment are a sign of a democracy working as opposed to what went on around the Sochi Olympics.



I wasn't comparing. I was stating that the freedom of the press is not carried out by democracy, gave two examples, who wee leaders not giving free press.

frankv
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  #1707531 22-Jan-2017 17:17
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Rikkitic:

 

There seems to be a degree of incoherence creeping into this discussion.

 

 

 

 

Creeping???

 

 


Fred99
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  #1707582 22-Jan-2017 19:08
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frankv:

 

Rikkitic:

 

There seems to be a degree of incoherence creeping into this discussion.

 

 

Creeping???

 

 

Incoherence?  The POTUS is a straight talker,  Damned sure he is:

 

 

"Look, having nuclear—my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart—you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world—it’s true!—but when you're a conservative Republican they try—oh, do they do a number—that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune—you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged—but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me—it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are (nuclear is powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right—who would have thought?), but when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners—now it used to be three, now it’s four—but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years—but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us."

 

 

 

 

 


Batman
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  #1707600 22-Jan-2017 19:24
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Stan:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

Stan: one might perhaps take you a bit more seriously if you would actually post some substantive contribution, instead of doing a blatant faux Socratic method by pretending to be making a genuine inquiry. Nothing that I have asserted requires me to conclusively establish the exact moment in time in which the western world as a whole became democratic. In fact, given the diversity of cultures, different levels of respect for human rights, and the rule of law, coming up with a precise, simple answer like that is impossible. This doesn't, however, prevent one from coming to a view that a country with the lovely characteristics of Russia might not make for a democracy, if you want to have a morally and practically relevant definition of democracy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not think you understand my intentions (well how could you this is the internet) I am interested in the opinion you present despite your rather crass replies to my posts.

 

So as I understand it Russia = not a democracy due to its lower standard of LBGT rights and press freedom than say the USA?

 

 

As I understand it, when you put all your opposition and anyone who speaks negatively of you in jail, beaten, killed, bankrupted, and who knows what, then the voting is irrelevant because all other serious candidates are eliminated. [Mind you this exact thing happens in say Singapore, so no I don't see Singapore as a democracy]

 

Say you enter a masterchef style competition. Any dishes that look or tastes good is chucked into the bin, then you can buy something from the supermarket and you win.

 

I suppose you are the only one who can define what you see as democracy.


Pumpedd
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  #1707616 22-Jan-2017 20:14
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freitasm: If you think this war mongering President will be "better" than Obama in your opinion when it comes to war strategy, think again:

 

 


 

 

 

Remember...trump knows more than the Generals!!!


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