Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?

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Ultimate Geek
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#801586 18-Apr-2013 12:57

Short answer: No

Long answer:

Scholarships are a privilege not a right.

The privilege should be earnt

Earning one should be on merit.

If we are talking about a University scholarship the test should be reaching a certain level of academic acumen.

If you can’t display the required level of academic acumen you need to find another source of funding.

If a minority, say race, want to advance a cause, (say greater academic achievement) then they need to find a way to fund it. The greater the importance of the cause the more motivated they will be to find a way.

Maori, for example, have no shortage of treaty settlements. If they feel strongly on investing in their future the provision by them of race based fee payment seems a worthwhile investment.

The Chinese or Philippinos’, as another example, work and provide funding to their studying family

MikeB4

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#801588 18-Apr-2013 13:00

So are opponents of targeted assistance saying we should pay everyone the same amount? Pay everyone a benefit irrespective of their fiscal resources? If so, stop and think of Europe.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Kyanar

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#801650 18-Apr-2013 13:55

KiwiNZ: So are opponents of targeted assistance saying we should pay everyone the same amount? Pay everyone a benefit irrespective of their fiscal resources? If so, stop and think of Europe.

Now who's being deliberately disingenuous?

Noone opposes targeted assistance. What people oppose is targeted assistance where one of the criteria is skin colour or religion.

This might make me unpopular, but frankly I'm offended that I'm taxed a fortune and part of my tax money is used to fund scholarships for Maori students. I am happy for part of my taxes to be used to fund scholarships; but I believe it should be on merit, not on skin colour. If a Maori student happens to be the candidate with the most merit, then I both applaud them and congratulate them on being one of the best of the best.

Same reason I oppose Maori seats on councils and in parliament. There are enough Maori people in NZ that if they were to choose to get up and vote (or if a Maori candidate campaigned on working to represent all New Zealanders instead of just a select few), there would be perfectly adequate Maori representation in government without this racist practice.

MikeB4

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#801666 18-Apr-2013 14:06

Kyanar:
KiwiNZ: So are opponents of targeted assistance saying we should pay everyone the same amount? Pay everyone a benefit irrespective of their fiscal resources? If so, stop and think of Europe.

Now who's being deliberately disingenuous?

Noone opposes targeted assistance. What people oppose is targeted assistance where one of the criteria is skin colour or religion.

This might make me unpopular, but frankly I'm offended that I'm taxed a fortune and part of my tax money is used to fund scholarships for Maori students. I am happy for part of my taxes to be used to fund scholarships; but I believe it should be on merit, not on skin colour. If a Maori student happens to be the candidate with the most merit, then I both applaud them and congratulate them on being one of the best of the best.

Same reason I oppose Maori seats on councils and in parliament. There are enough Maori people in NZ that if they were to choose to get up and vote (or if a Maori candidate campaigned on working to represent all New Zealanders instead of just a select few), there would be perfectly adequate Maori representation in government without this racist practice.

Target assistance will by it's nature target a group and exclude others, why is this logic so hard to fathom?
I believe it is actually jealousy, that someone is getting something that one cannot have.

I have experienced similar in a small way when I have been abused for parking in a disabled car park and getting into my wheelchair.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Klipspringer

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#801671 18-Apr-2013 14:14

KiwiNZ:

Target assistance will by it's nature target a group and exclude others, why is this logic so hard to fathom?
I believe it is actually jealousy, that someone is getting something that one cannot have.

I have experienced similar in a small way when I have been abused for parking in a disabled car park and getting into my wheelchair.

I think you missing the point.

Target assistance in this case is only including those of a certain skin colour or race.

MikeSkyrme

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#801673 18-Apr-2013 14:21

A question.....:

A what point is targetted assistance, no longer targetted assistance but simply 'discrimination'?

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

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rossmnz

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#801675 18-Apr-2013 14:23

Yes I believe.

however I would also like to see this narrowed down to those of a certain race who qualify on certain economic grounds also.

Its a way to improve the lot of maori or pacific island peoples who are generally over-represented in poverty statistics.

When i was at university rich kids who were 1/8th maori were on these so called scholarships and that benefits NZ how? They would still be at university.

If we are to persist with this it must be with the intention of bringing equality to the country.

The force is strong with this one!

qwerty7

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#801717 18-Apr-2013 15:23

This discussion is heading toward another question.

Are race based scholarships actually effective at raising the socio economic levels of the target group?

My thinking is aligned with others in this thread. Race based scholarships are normally obtained by middle class peoples in the first place. The group who are at the low end of socio economic levels among the target group won't be going to University anyway. So not only do they enhance segregation they are also not effective at increasing the socio economic levels of the target group.

NZtechfreak

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#801726 18-Apr-2013 15:40

A few things worth mentioning:

Firstly, I keep seeing people talking about these not being targeted along lines of financial need, and about recipients who really didn't need that assistance.

In relation to those points, I'm wondering where you guys are drawing your information from? The reason I ask is that all of these scholarships I ever encountered or applied for specifically ask for a complete financial statement, financial need is an explicit part of the criteria. Obviously like anything else some people may abuse it, but the vast majority of recipients in my experience (having been one and known many others) were absolutely needful and placed in a much more financially secure situation that let them devote more time and attention to their studies. Throwing out all the assistance because some may abuse it doesn't really make sense. It seems to me that most people are making this argument based on A) Not actually knowing anything about the actual criteria of these scholarships, which unanimously cover financial need in my direct experience, and B) anecdotal level 'one or several people I knew' evidence of abuse, whereas my considerably larger anecdotal experience of several hundred Maori and Pacific Island students has been overwhelming against the suggestion that this is rife.

Secondly, to the notion that these assist the most high achieving amongst the group and that this doesn't really help the situation: really? You can't see how having say a health workforce that better represents our population benefits everyone, and particularly minority group health service users, who have tended to be poorly represented in those professions? You can't see that having examples of academic success to hold up might help members of those minorities to see that higher education could be an option for them? As MAPAS scheme members we often went out to high schools and intermediates in some of the most deprived areas of South Auckland to talk to students (all students) about higher education, going to university, medicine etc. Certainly in the medical field those of us graduating who gained entry via MAPAS put a lot back into it to, whether that be visiting schools, mentoring and tutoring students, funding the very scholarships in question here, advocating for our patients, lobbying government to make policy that benefits deprived sectors of society (Maori and non-Maori alike), in addition to staying in NZ and typically working in deprived areas and so directly influencing the health of people in those areas (health being a fundamental building block of equity in SES terms). Reductionist arguments that attempt to only bring the goals of these scholarships down to improving SES are bunkum, although you can still make a case in the longer term for these being a valid part of a web of strategies directed at improving SES.

To rossmnz: please don't bring blood quantum into this discussion, it's rubbish. I'm 'only' an eighth Maori, but I clearly identify as Maori, I'm not any less Maori than someone who is 50% Maori.

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MikeB4

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#801727 18-Apr-2013 15:41

qwerty7: This discussion is heading toward another question.

Are race based scholarships actually effective at raising the socio economic levels of the target group?

My thinking is aligned with others in this thread. Race based scholarships are normally obtained by middle class peoples in the first place. The group who are at the low end of socio economic levels among the target group won't be going to University anyway. So not only do they enhance segregation they are also not effective at increasing the socio economic levels of the target group.

My belief is that they should be "targeted" , that is, criteria must be met that...
1. The applicant is in the targeted group
2. They have achieved a prescribed primary and secondary education level
3. They can demonstrate a willingness or aptitude for the chosen qualification and or Trade
4. They do no have the fiscal resources and due to family circumstances other income tests are not applied.
5. continuation of grants or scholarships are linked to attendance and course results

In a perfect world the country would have the fiscal resources to fund everyone equally, however New Zealand does not, therefore i believe it is right to target additional funding towards those in the most need or those in an at risk group. It is not discrimination in the negative connotations, it is prudent resource management.

During the 23 years in Social Services I saw thousands of young people with enormous potential that due to circumstances well beyond their control they were not able to realise that potential. If we are going to stop the poverty cycle in New Zealand, and yes poverty is here and it is very real, then we need to target the very limited resources we have to have an affect.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

rossmnz

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Ultimate Geek
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#801746 18-Apr-2013 16:07

NZtechfreak: A few things worth mentioning:

To rossmnz: please don't bring blood quantum into this discussion, it's rubbish. I'm 'only' an eighth Maori, but I clearly identify as Maori, I'm not any less Maori than someone who is 50% Maori.

Fair is fair.

Ok let me amend that to "who clearly dont identify with Maori or identify themselves as such".

Happy?

The force is strong with this one!

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NZtechfreak

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#801753 18-Apr-2013 16:15

rossmnz:
NZtechfreak: A few things worth mentioning:

To rossmnz: please don't bring blood quantum into this discussion, it's rubbish. I'm 'only' an eighth Maori, but I clearly identify as Maori, I'm not any less Maori than someone who is 50% Maori.

Fair is fair.

Ok let me amend that to "who clearly dont identify with Maori or identify themselves as such".

Happy?

Perfectly happy, thank you :)

I would also like for those who are of Maori descent, but who don't identify as Maori, to be excluded from these scholarships. That is actually a criteria of these scholarships also, but one of the easier ones to workaround if your intent is to abuse the scholarships.

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driller2000

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#801861 18-Apr-2013 20:04

My perspective - 43 year old male of Maori (Ngapuhi) descent with a BE (Civil) from Akl Uni and I have worked as a professional engineer for 20 years

None of this would have been possible without the scholarships I received (ie. DSIR and Rose Hellaby Trust) to support me through my degree course. This is due to fact the that I was raised by a loving mum, who happened to be on the DPB, so we had limited financial means - she did however impress upon both myself and my sister (Who subsequently gained an LLB from Akl Uni) the value of an education.

I was Dux of my school, with a solid A Bursary - so standard entry path to Akl Uni Eng School. So the affirmative action piece for me was solely financial - so I fully earned both my place in the class and my degree.

As part of the deal I had to keep passing each year for the funding to remain in place.

Total funding received over 4 years was approx $10k - and it made all the difference. For the record I have refunded this investment made in me, back into the tax system many times over - and I am happy to do so if some it provides someone else a similar opportunity to the one I was fortunate enough to receive.

Furthermore my education will also enable me to support my hapu/marae as they look at options to improve their facilities and future.

As the first in a large whanau to attend university, I hope that it has also provided an example of an education based path for my them to perhaps consider as part of their future.

Trust the above makes it clear why I support such programmes.

JimmyH

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#801914 18-Apr-2013 21:37

KiwiNZ: So are opponents of targeted assistance saying we should pay everyone the same amount? Pay everyone a benefit irrespective of their fiscal resources? If so, stop and think of Europe.

No.

I and many others have no problem with targeted assistance. By all means offer income tested allowances, and scholarships based on ability and circumstances. I have no problem with that. My problem is when race or gender are used as the targeting criteria. Doubly so when taxpayers funds are involved.

NZtechfreak

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#801919 18-Apr-2013 21:45

JimmyH:
KiwiNZ: So are opponents of targeted assistance saying we should pay everyone the same amount? Pay everyone a benefit irrespective of their fiscal resources? If so, stop and think of Europe.

No.

I and many others have no problem with targeted assistance. By all means offer income tested allowances, and scholarships based on ability and circumstances. I have no problem with that. My problem is when race or gender are used as the targeting criteria. Doubly so when taxpayers funds are involved.

Do you understand why they were chosen?

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