GCSB Protest March

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#864722 23-Jul-2013 22:36

KiwiNZ:
There is signs that current Government is being influenced from off shore.

Of course they are.

These people want to be invited to go overseas, to be part of the policy meeting jig.

This is also about big IT making money from the technology.

No one gives a rats butt what kiwis crack on about on their mobile phone or private email.

I could crack on all day and night about flying my plane in to White House and anyone with half a brain would take one quick look at my income situation and where I live and see I have no plane, or know how to get one off the ground and I'm at the bottom of the world and no chance in hell of getting any where near the US to make good on my crack pot ranting.

But it strikes me that we crack on all the time about what things other countries in the OECD have and are doing.

It strikes me that Big IT is looking on and wanting little .nz to be spying on people so it can sell truck loads of technology in real markets around the world to spy on people who might have half a chance of getting close enough to the White House to present a real perceived threat... so that Big Gun can sell more rockets to put on the top of the White House.

"hey look, everyone else is doing it... even that little TPLC .nz! We should too!!!.... won't someone think of the children?!?!?!?!!?"

"... let's invite the Kiwi's to come talk to us about how they did it and all the benefits it could deliver us in our country!!!"

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#864728 23-Jul-2013 22:49

Klipspringer: Personally I have no issues with these bills.

As a law abiding citizen I have nothing to hide.

This is a very scary, and misguided, argument. I understand what you are saying, but you are missing the point. Privacy is a very precious right, and it's not only wrongdoers concealing heinous crimes that are concerned about keeping their private lives, well, private. Not all governments are well intentioned. Even if they are, they may not always be in future, and even if they are there are always accidental stuff-ups like the recent releases of ACC and EQC files.

Consider the following hypothetical situations.

1. You are a public servant. You make a donation to party A. The data hoovered up by the government system includes your bank records - just in case you were supporting terrorists you understand. Party B wins and uses this data to find out who gave money to the other side. Bye bye job.

2. You are public servant and an atheist and correspond with fellow atheists using your private email. A fervent believer in [insert religion of choice] becomes your boss and runs a check for atheists. Bye bye job, possibly life as well. Far fetched here at the moment, but not in (say) Iran? Atheism would cost you a political/public career in parts of America too.

3. You buy some books about drugs and/or guns online, say for private research or because you are a military history buff. Suddenly you lose your job in early childcare.

4. You are an exemplary teacher who has applied for a job as the principal of a small country school. The government has compiled an extensive central dossier on you, which includes (say) your previous treatment for clinical depression, that you attempted suicide as a teenager, and that you are gay. Due to an ACC-style stuff up, the local newspaper gets and publishes it.

4(A). As per 4 above, but none of it is actually true. You are actually Andrew A Klipspringer, and the system has erroneously matched you with records for Andrew B Klipspringer.

In none of these cases have you actually done anything wrong. In all of them you lose heavily because the state has been allowed to indiscriminately snoop, store and match personal data.

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#864730 23-Jul-2013 22:53

The TheUngeek account owner asked me to retire his account.

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#864749 23-Jul-2013 23:39

JimmyH:
Klipspringer: Personally I have no issues with these bills.

As a law abiding citizen I have nothing to hide.

4. You are an exemplary teacher who has applied for a job as the principal of a small country school. The government has compiled an extensive central dossier on you, which includes (say) your previous treatment for clinical depression, that you attempted suicide as a teenager, and that you are gay. Due to an ACC-style stuff up, the local newspaper gets and publishes it.

4(A). As per 4 above, but none of it is actually true. You are actually Andrew A Klipspringer, and the system has erroneously matched you with records for Andrew B Klipspringer.

It's not the local news paper that I fear. There's a good chance with the Press, owned by Fairfax, that the article has to go via a sub editor and then editor and a fact checker and the writer knows that their words will be vetted before it goes live and their pay rate is based in part on how much it costs to proof their stuff.

The editor also knows that they don't want to upset the advertisers, so they're going to think twice before tainting a local community teacher without having all the facts.

Now Facebook on the other hand, that does strike fear in to my heart.

What happens when your private data is leaked out on to facebook because someone couldn't figure out how to make an application on the network work without giving the whole computer system full public access?

Your examples sound like a fanticy... my example above could still happen because we don't know who else has that WINZ data but just hasn't yet let on.

We don't know how long those systems were left open.

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#864779 24-Jul-2013 07:23

DonGould:
KiwiNZ:
There is signs that current Government is being influenced from off shore.

Of course they are.

These people want to be invited to go overseas, to be part of the policy meeting jig.

This is also about big IT making money from the technology.

No one gives a rats butt what kiwis crack on about on their mobile phone or private email.

I could crack on all day and night about flying my plane in to White House and anyone with half a brain would take one quick look at my income situation and where I live and see I have no plane, or know how to get one off the ground and I'm at the bottom of the world and no chance in hell of getting any where near the US to make good on my crack pot ranting.

But it strikes me that we crack on all the time about what things other countries in the OECD have and are doing.

It strikes me that Big IT is looking on and wanting little .nz to be spying on people so it can sell truck loads of technology in real markets around the world to spy on people who might have half a chance of getting close enough to the White House to present a real perceived threat... so that Big Gun can sell more rockets to put on the top of the White House.

"hey look, everyone else is doing it... even that little TPLC .nz! We should too!!!.... won't someone think of the children?!?!?!?!!?"

"... let's invite the Kiwi's to come talk to us about how they did it and all the benefits it could deliver us in our country!!!"

I don't believe it is about "big IT" making money. New Zealand is a rounding error for IT spending.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

SaltyNZ

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#864782 24-Jul-2013 07:55

DonGould:
A group of all political leaders and independents from all parties should sign off on all data interception and be fully aware of it.

I didn't vote for the judges.

I don't trust judges to get this right either.

That's actually an interesting point. In theory judges are impartial and also have a better working grasp of the law, whereas politicians are elected and therefore have some sort of electoral axe to grind. Perhaps, in the case of a routine (i.e. not urgent - not lives in immediate danger) warrant, it should be a panel of three; a judge, a minister, and someone independent like the Privacy Commissioner or possibly a completely new post.

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#864784 24-Jul-2013 08:10

KiwiNZ:

I don't believe it is about "big IT" making money. New Zealand is a rounding error for IT spending.

That's true, but as Don says it still makes a nice story. We're small and relatively easily manipulated but still First World. If you want somewhere you can point to and say 'Look, they did it!' you can do far worse than us.

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DonGould

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#864893 24-Jul-2013 10:45

SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ:

I don't believe it is about "big IT" making money. New Zealand is a rounding error for IT spending.

That's true, but as Don says it still makes a nice story. We're small and relatively easily manipulated but still First World. If you want somewhere you can point to and say 'Look, they did it!' you can do far worse than us.

Yes that being the point.

I was suggesting that BigIT are interested in investing in New Zealand because it helps them sell product in big places, not because New Zealand it a profitable market place.

This is also a great place to come and have a holiday, so what better place to put an office so you can come and do a 'work visit'?!

From our point of view, getting these big guns down here means we can go have a holiday in their country.... "Oh it's a 'policy' meeting..."

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting we should shut out technology vendors and stop going to policy meetings. I'm just saying we shouldn't be naive about things and stick to buying coms technology to communicate, not spy on each other.

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ajobbins

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#864926 24-Jul-2013 11:10

SaltyNZ: That's actually an interesting point. In theory judges are impartial and also have a better working grasp of the law, whereas politicians are elected and therefore have some sort of electoral axe to grind. Perhaps, in the case of a routine (i.e. not urgent - not lives in immediate danger) warrant, it should be a panel of three; a judge, a minister, and someone independent like the Privacy Commissioner or possibly a completely new post.

I understand (from something I read yesterday) that the director of the GCSB publicly stated that involving the judiciary in the warrant process was a good idea. But I don't think JK is keen, as that would remove his devine power to spy on anyone he liked, especially when his mate Eric Holder gets on the phone.

Edit: It was the former director of the GCSB.

"The former Director of the GCSB himself agreed that judicial oversight is a good idea. The Bill should still be amended to provide for this.”

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/spy-bill-changes-improvement-further-change-needed-internetnz-ck-143249

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Klipspringer

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#864933 24-Jul-2013 11:16

JimmyH:
Klipspringer: Personally I have no issues with these bills.

As a law abiding citizen I have nothing to hide.

This is a very scary, and misguided, argument. I understand what you are saying, but you are missing the point. Privacy is a very precious right, and it's not only wrongdoers concealing heinous crimes that are concerned about keeping their private lives, well, private. Not all governments are well intentioned. Even if they are, they may not always be in future, and even if they are there are always accidental stuff-ups like the recent releases of ACC and EQC files.

Consider the following hypothetical situations.

1. You are a public servant. You make a donation to party A. The data hoovered up by the government system includes your bank records - just in case you were supporting terrorists you understand. Party B wins and uses this data to find out who gave money to the other side. Bye bye job.

2. You are public servant and an atheist and correspond with fellow atheists using your private email. A fervent believer in [insert religion of choice] becomes your boss and runs a check for atheists. Bye bye job, possibly life as well. Far fetched here at the moment, but not in (say) Iran? Atheism would cost you a political/public career in parts of America too.

3. You buy some books about drugs and/or guns online, say for private research or because you are a military history buff. Suddenly you lose your job in early childcare.

4. You are an exemplary teacher who has applied for a job as the principal of a small country school. The government has compiled an extensive central dossier on you, which includes (say) your previous treatment for clinical depression, that you attempted suicide as a teenager, and that you are gay. Due to an ACC-style stuff up, the local newspaper gets and publishes it.

4(A). As per 4 above, but none of it is actually true. You are actually Andrew A Klipspringer, and the system has erroneously matched you with records for Andrew B Klipspringer.

In none of these cases have you actually done anything wrong. In all of them you lose heavily because the state has been allowed to indiscriminately snoop, store and match personal data.

You starting to sound like this guy:

I agree there may be some disadvantages of this law.

As said previously. Its all about these guys, not us law abiding citizens.

Klipspringer: Look at the positives about these law changes.

Tami Iti and he cronies would be in jail where they belong.
See New Zealand Raids
The evidence was not allowed to be used in his trial (as it was invading his privacy) and in the end he only faced firearms charges. (Police evidence included documents alleging Iti was preparing for an IRA-style "war on New Zealand" to establish an independent state on traditionally Tuhoe land.)
$6 million expense to the taxpayer.

For all 4 of those points you have listed, I already have no control of that data. Its out there already and in the hands of third party companies, banks, etc ...

Your tinfoil hat theory just passes the risk of "information leaks" from Banks and other third party sources (where all of that can happen already) to government.
Don't see the issue.

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#864935 24-Jul-2013 11:21

Looks like a draft of the updated legislation has been seen by some, if not yet publicly released: a QC says the changes are not enough.

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#864940 24-Jul-2013 11:30

DonGould:
Your examples sound like a fanticy... my example above could still happen because we don't know who else has that WINZ data but just hasn't yet let on.

We don't know how long those systems were left open.

Your example can happen right now.

How do these new laws change anything?

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#864943 24-Jul-2013 11:34

I don't necessarily agree with what is being proposed, however I do agree that the Government has a need and an obligation to provide security for the Nation from both internal and external threats, small they may be. I actually feel we are at greater risk from
mother nature than anything else, maybe the money would be better invested in disaster mitigation systems etc.

That being said if the need for these powers has been established then the powers should be provided but with checks and balances and oversight. The Judiciary is the best for this.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#864945 24-Jul-2013 11:35

Klipspringer: As said previously. Its all about these guys, not us law abiding citizens.

What about when you innocently do a goggle search for something that happens to have a dodgy link in the results (Plenty of examples of legitimate search terms that can yield unwanted results, say it comes up with a link to a site that has known links to child pornography.

Suddenly you're perfectly legitimate goggle search to find a photographer to take some family portraits of you and your kids lands you on a sex offenders list.

It may sound far fetched right now, the the more of our right to privacy we concede, the greater the change of this in the future. Especially true if we have government (now or in the future) who start to 'worry' about civil unrest or losing power etc.

What if you were planning a rally in protest to a bill the government was proposing that you didn't agree with (such as is the topic of this thread). Perfectly legitimate, law abiding event. But someone in the governemnt wants to silence you because they want to get the bill through. All of a sudden you're locked up on 'national security' grounds because the government picked up through your emails that you were planning to be involved. You haven't broken the law, but someone in a position of power wants to shut you up, and laws like this give them legal means to do so without explanation or recourse.

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DonGould

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#864982 24-Jul-2013 12:11

Klipspringer:
DonGould:
Your examples sound like a fanticy... my example above could still happen because we don't know who else has that WINZ data but just hasn't yet let on.

We don't know how long those systems were left open.

Your example can happen right now.

How do these new laws change anything?

The key issue in my mind is that it's time we were closing this stuff down, not giving it more authority to operate.

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