Festival of Democracy

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Mad Scientist
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#1132997 21-Sep-2014 00:20

sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

what i don't get about greens is i thought they were about the environment, but every thing they pass has got nothing to do with it - eg anti smack, gay marriage, and now they want abortion up to nearly fully grown ..

please correct me if wrong

networkn

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#1132999 21-Sep-2014 00:35

floydbloke:
networkn:
Geektastic:
Handle9: It'll come down to special and overseas votes for the last 2% which traditionally goes to the greens.

My wife and I were 'special ' and our 4 votes were all very blue!

Not a hint of homespun tofu vegan baby pod to be seen…

Yay! NZ thanks you! I just need to know how two people get 4 votes? Do you work for the GCSB ? :)

Did you not get to tick two boxes on your ballot paper?

Whoops, didn't think of that!

matisyahu

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#1133004 21-Sep-2014 01:50

joker97:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

what i don't get about greens is i thought they were about the environment, but every thing they pass has got nothing to do with it - eg anti smack, gay marriage, and now they want abortion up to nearly fully grown ..

please correct me if wrong

When you think of the Green's then think of a watermelon.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

gzt

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#1133006 21-Sep-2014 03:11

joker97:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

what i don't get about greens is i thought they were about the environment, but every thing they pass has got nothing to do with it - eg anti smack, gay marriage, and now they want abortion up to nearly fully grown ..

please correct me if wrong

Link to actual policy please. Parts I read so far indicate a desire to increase equality of access therefore termination occurring earlier in a term as a result. In either case I would suggest a new thread for a policy topic.

oxnsox

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#1133010 21-Sep-2014 07:40

Interesting result. Says to me that, people vote for for their party with their electorate vote, and vote for a leader with their party vote.

Batman

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#1133023 21-Sep-2014 08:18

Yes we kinda of saw that, the people of tokerau absolutely sent kdc to h#ll

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MikeB4

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#1133032 21-Sep-2014 08:26

joker97:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

what i don't get about greens is i thought they were about the environment, but every thing they pass has got nothing to do with it - eg anti smack, gay marriage, and now they want abortion up to nearly fully grown ..

please correct me if wrong

Single issue Party's seldom do well, by promoting a range of policies be they good or bad means they increase their potential target and hopefully appeal to a wider audience.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

sdav

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#1133033 21-Sep-2014 08:38

KiwiNZ:
joker97:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

what i don't get about greens is i thought they were about the environment, but every thing they pass has got nothing to do with it - eg anti smack, gay marriage, and now they want abortion up to nearly fully grown ..

please correct me if wrong

Single issue Party's seldom do well, by promoting a range of policies be they good or bad means they increase their potential target and hopefully appeal to a wider audience.

And the way I see it Labour and the Greens have become irrelevant when you consider the reasons for theor existence. Labour has made fantastic gains since they started in benefit and employment legislation while the Greens have got the environment message across. National are more central than ever and aren't reversing any of their work in a way that people feel they need to resort back to those parties.

Geektastic

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#1133324 21-Sep-2014 23:11

Given the whining and whinging that was going on when the whole partial asset sales thing was happening I was surprised not to hear more about that in the election.

I think it showed that people had realised the sky had not fallen on their heads after all...

6FIEND

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#1133556 22-Sep-2014 11:40

sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

This is a fundamental strategic decision for the Greens. They essentially have two options available to them to ever have any chance at being relevant in government:

1) Obtain a strategic alliance with Labour and campaign cooperatively in 2017 (this was their preferred option this time and Labour denied them the opportunity, which Labour retrospectively say they regret.)
2) Stick to core environmental principles (grass roots), dial back the socialist rhetoric and campaign to be part of a 2017 National government. (Minister for the Environment, Conservation Minister, etc, etc.)

Continuing with the status-quo will only see a continuation of their first 15yrs in Parliament. (i.e. Never getting a Cabinet seat) ...Labour will never treat with them because they have nowhere else to go, and Labour will need to woo more centrist groups like NZF and (or even Conservatives (at a stretch)) to form a 2017 govt.

D1023319

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#1133592 22-Sep-2014 12:49

I just dont get MMP having electorate seats.

Electorate MP's are redundant as they cant achieve squat either within Parliament or lobbying within their own parties.
They are just a "feel good" point of contact to make locals think they have special representation.

So why not dispense with all electorate seats / Maori seats and drop the threshold for party Parliament representation to the equivalent of one seat.

In one stroke, this change would
- makes voting papers simpler
- gets rid of electorate number inequalities, e.g. where Maori seats have up to 50% less voters to elect a MP than non-Maori
- gets rid of overhangs where a single electorate seat MP has more representation % in Parliament that their party received
- avoids the issue of parties like Conservatives / NZ first getting just less than 5% threshold and no representation.
- Mean regional maori interest could form their own parties with a lower threshold to reach parliament or combine into one Maori party

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gzt

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#1133758 22-Sep-2014 15:13

6FIEND:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

This is a fundamental strategic decision for the Greens. They essentially have two options available to them to ever have any chance at being relevant in government:

1) Obtain a strategic alliance with Labour and campaign cooperatively in 2017 (this was their preferred option this time and Labour denied them the opportunity, which Labour retrospectively say they regret.)
2) Stick to core environmental principles (grass roots), dial back the socialist rhetoric and campaign to be part of a 2017 National government. (Minister for the Environment, Conservation Minister, etc, etc.)

Continuing with the status-quo will only see a continuation of their first 15yrs in Parliament. (i.e. Never getting a Cabinet seat) ...Labour will never treat with them because they have nowhere else to go, and Labour will need to woo more centrist groups like NZF and (or even Conservatives (at a stretch)) to form a 2017 govt.

My impression was there was some kind of internal revolt in the Greens against the possibility of working with National again. This occurred not long after Harawira had spat the dummy with the Maori party. It seemed to be a trend at the time. That's my recollection.

networkn

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#1133765 22-Sep-2014 15:18

gzt:
6FIEND:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

This is a fundamental strategic decision for the Greens. They essentially have two options available to them to ever have any chance at being relevant in government:

1) Obtain a strategic alliance with Labour and campaign cooperatively in 2017 (this was their preferred option this time and Labour denied them the opportunity, which Labour retrospectively say they regret.)
2) Stick to core environmental principles (grass roots), dial back the socialist rhetoric and campaign to be part of a 2017 National government. (Minister for the Environment, Conservation Minister, etc, etc.)

Continuing with the status-quo will only see a continuation of their first 15yrs in Parliament. (i.e. Never getting a Cabinet seat) ...Labour will never treat with them because they have nowhere else to go, and Labour will need to woo more centrist groups like NZF and (or even Conservatives (at a stretch)) to form a 2017 govt.

My impression was there was some kind of internal revolt in the Greens against the possibility of working with National again. This occurred not long after Harawira had spat the dummy with the Maori party. It seemed to be a trend at the time. That's my recollection.

Well it's all but the only way they will actually be able to achieve something in Parliament to be honest. Surely with National holding power alone, National can stop them doing anything, so they are better to try and get something than sit doing nothing for 3 years?

Jaxson

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#1133945 22-Sep-2014 17:43

Agree with some of the comments above. For a party like the Greens you can't present yourself as environmental issues only unless something changes, either in you say you'll work with any party but must assume control of the environmental roles, or perhaps the wider election / parliament system changes and you vote for the best party to undertake set roles.

gzt

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#1134100 22-Sep-2014 21:15

networkn:
gzt:
6FIEND:
sdav: Also the greens stubborn refusal to consider working with a National government does them no favours. They are now going to be out of Government for 9 years. There is a lot they could have achieved in that time.

This is a fundamental strategic decision for the Greens. They essentially have two options available to them to ever have any chance at being relevant in government:

1) Obtain a strategic alliance with Labour and campaign cooperatively in 2017 (this was their preferred option this time and Labour denied them the opportunity, which Labour retrospectively say they regret.)
2) Stick to core environmental principles (grass roots), dial back the socialist rhetoric and campaign to be part of a 2017 National government. (Minister for the Environment, Conservation Minister, etc, etc.)

Continuing with the status-quo will only see a continuation of their first 15yrs in Parliament. (i.e. Never getting a Cabinet seat) ...Labour will never treat with them because they have nowhere else to go, and Labour will need to woo more centrist groups like NZF and (or even Conservatives (at a stretch)) to form a 2017 govt.

My impression was there was some kind of internal revolt in the Greens against the possibility of working with National again. This occurred not long after Harawira had spat the dummy with the Maori party. It seemed to be a trend at the time. That's my recollection.

Well it's all but the only way they will actually be able to achieve something in Parliament to be honest. Surely with National holding power alone, National can stop them doing anything, so they are better to try and get something than sit doing nothing for 3 years?

Parliament has many formal processes where non-government ministers can and do make a contribution.

For example the select committee process where ministers and the general public can contribute to legislation. Mostly this improves the quality of legislation but from time to time it also adds content.

Similarly private members bills and opposition bills can have the effect of prefiguring government legislation to some extent.

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