Spread of Islam - Something to be concerned about or not ?

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#1351060 24-Jul-2015 10:41

MikeB4:
heylinb4nz:

Intolerance would be actively trying to stop this stuff, which I am not doing. Im just making a point.

FYI intolerance doesn't just apply to religion and culture. Plenty of intolerant meddling liberals out there that go out of their way to change the world for the supposed better, god knows we tolerate more than our fair share of liberal BS.

Intolerance;

" 1. lack of tolerance; unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect opinions or beliefs contrary to one's own.
2. unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect persons of a different social group, especially members of a minority group. "

Thank you Mike for confirming that you to are also intolerant, welcome to the human race. I wont even bother to dredge up your intolerant views and responses to many peoples posts here.

freitasm

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#1351062 24-Jul-2015 10:42

I don't think Mike is being intolerant. Disagreeing with one's opinion or point of view is not intolerance. Fighting against this opinion is.

Geektastic

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#1351064 24-Jul-2015 10:48

Being intolerant is perfectly human.

Assuming it is in and of itself a bad thing is a relatively modern construct.

heylinb4nz

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#1351068 24-Jul-2015 11:02

freitasm: I don't think Mike is being intolerant. Disagreeing with one's opinion or point of view is not intolerance. Fighting against this opinion is.

Fine

Mike disagrees with alot of my thoughts on many topics....and fights them.

Therefore he is intolerant.

Dreal

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#1351071 24-Jul-2015 11:07

heylinb4nz: Is it fair to say though that Islam is more dangerous because it is not just a religion but also an ideology \ system of governance ?

Not to mention the fact the book they study "The Quran"

a) calls for the killing of un believers
b) allows for the beating \ lashing \ killing of woman
c) openly refers to non believers, jews and christian as vile sub humans who are to be killed
d) calls followers to migrate, procreate and decieve host nations until majority is held and Sharia can be implemented

Dont even get me started on the undercover videos at Londons most prominent mosque that teaches students the above along with even harsher Saudi interpretations.

I think extremists are a problem, but they are also highly visible and thus easily contained.

Has anyone here read the Quran ?

Yeah but the bible calls for you to give your daughter to guest of your house, make animal sacrifices, not eat fish, and constantly talks about idoltary and so on. The amount of murder and call for murder is very large, as is the long long list of things you can't do. A whole book could be made out of the insane claims and morally wrong demands of the bible.

I think you'll find that the Bible is no more reasonable than the Quaran, it's just for the most part moderates ignore or re-interperet such parts of a holy book.

And muslims do too. Jihad, is a spiritual war, a personal journey to moderates.

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heylinb4nz

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#1351078 24-Jul-2015 11:17

Dreal:
heylinb4nz: Is it fair to say though that Islam is more dangerous because it is not just a religion but also an ideology \ system of governance ?

Not to mention the fact the book they study "The Quran"

a) calls for the killing of un believers
b) allows for the beating \ lashing \ killing of woman
c) openly refers to non believers, jews and christian as vile sub humans who are to be killed
d) calls followers to migrate, procreate and decieve host nations until majority is held and Sharia can be implemented

Dont even get me started on the undercover videos at Londons most prominent mosque that teaches students the above along with even harsher Saudi interpretations.

I think extremists are a problem, but they are also highly visible and thus easily contained.

Has anyone here read the Quran ?

Yeah but the bible calls for you to give your daughter to guest of your house, make animal sacrifices, not eat fish, and constantly talks about idoltary and so on. The amount of murder and call for murder is very large, as is the long long list of things you can't do. A whole book could be made out of the insane claims and morally wrong demands of the bible.

I think you'll find that the Bible is no more reasonable than the Quaran, it's just for the most part moderates ignore or re-interperet such parts of a holy book.

And muslims do too. Jihad, is a spiritual war, a personal journey to moderates.

Yeah, which is why I much prefer to try and live my life free of any book that contains such things and live by the laws of my country (provided they are fair, reasonable and democratic) ill fight alongside fellow reasonable citizens when those laws take away freedom and liberty and become un-democratic.

Not murder
Not rape
Not physically assualt (unless in self defence)
Try to be a good parent \ partner
Be warm and welcoming to friends and guests

Basically try and do the best I can without some book or god telling me how to run my life.

Hence my comment, if you need a book or god to follow in order to do this, then there is someone wrong, its something we should all be able to do as reasonable human beings living on the same planet.

freitasm

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#1351079 24-Jul-2015 11:19

heylinb4nz:
freitasm: I don't think Mike is being intolerant. Disagreeing with one's opinion or point of view is not intolerance. Fighting against this opinion is.

Fine

Mike disagrees with alot of my thoughts on many topics....and fights them. Therefore he is intolerant.

On the other hand many of your posts attracted warnings or were just removed by our moderators. So I tend to disagree and we keep an eye out for them. You are on a fine line here.

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MikeB4

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#1351081 24-Jul-2015 11:20

heylinb4nz:

Yeah, which is why I much prefer to try and live my life free of any book that contains such things and live by the laws of my country (provided they are fair, reasonable and democratic) ill fight alongside fellow reasonable citizens when those laws take away freedom and liberty and become un-democratic.

Not murder
Not rape
Not physically assualt (unless in self defence)
Try to be a good parent \ partner
Be warm and welcoming to friends and guests

Basically try and do the best I can without some book or god telling me how to run my life.

Hence my comment, if you need a book or god to follow in order to do this, then there is someone wrong, its something we should all be able to do as reasonable human beings living on the same planet.

There are many books that govern the way humans should behave and interact...they are called statutes and laws

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#1351086 24-Jul-2015 11:23

heylinb4nz:

Yeah, which is why I much prefer to try and live my life free of any book that contains such things and live by the laws of my country (provided they are fair, reasonable and democratic) ill fight alongside fellow reasonable citizens when those laws take away freedom and liberty and become un-democratic.

Not murder
Not rape
Not physically assualt (unless in self defence)
Try to be a good parent \ partner
Be warm and welcoming to friends and guests

Basically try and do the best I can without some book or god telling me how to run my life.

Hence my comment, if you need a book or god to follow in order to do this, then there is someone wrong, its something we should all be able to do as reasonable human beings living on the same planet.

unfortunately whatever book you live by, you live by a book. in another country, you follow their laws, in this country you follow the law. without it all the top 4 things you mention will not be achieved. even with the law, all the top 4 things aren't achieved. the 5th one i don't believe is written in law - but if they are not your friends/guests it's ok to do as you please?

MikeB4

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#1351087 24-Jul-2015 11:23

heylinb4nz:
freitasm: I don't think Mike is being intolerant. Disagreeing with one's opinion or point of view is not intolerance. Fighting against this opinion is.

Fine

Mike disagrees with alot of my thoughts on many topics....and fights them. Therefore he is intolerant.

Yes I disagree with some of your views but they are your views and therefore welcome to them, I am however free to disagree and to voice that disagreement but not in hateful, threatening or insulting terms. I do not fight your views I simply do not hold your views. If I have then I truly apologise.

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#1351089 24-Jul-2015 11:28

sen8or: Heres a question though -

If none of the religious books / texts were ever written, how would people know what to believe in?

Religious war - its all fighting over who has the superior imaginary friend.....

Religious war should be historical. When your greatgrandfather was a monkey, he would kill other monkeys to get ahead. When your grandfather was a caveman, he would kill/eat/who knows what else other cavemen to get ahead. When cilivization was at its infancy, people would kill/other unmentionable things other cultures/women/children to get ahead. It was normal. Survival of the fittest they call it.

It cannot be normal today. Hence the OP starting the thread. How to get rid of it. I suggest it is very difficult verging on impossible.

heylinb4nz

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#1351091 24-Jul-2015 11:28

Good points made

I suppose all books at the end of the day and trying to achieve some good and some control over the masses (for better or evil)

I guess the human race is just so rich and diverse in history, culture, geography and individual thinking, along with mans flaws (lust for money power control etc) its crazy to think we can control it all and live in a peaceful world free of all the crap.

Best we can do is watch out for ourselves and others and hope we can ride the fine line between the good life and complete anarchy in society.

No point wasting further time pondering it I suppose.

MikeB4

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#1351093 24-Jul-2015 11:30

heylinb4nz: Good points made

I suppose all books at the end of the day and trying to achieve some good and some control over the masses (for better or evil)

I guess the human race is just so rich and diverse in history, culture, geography and individual thinking, along with mans flaws (lust for money power control etc) its crazy to think we can control it all and live in a peaceful world free of all the crap.

Best we can do is watch out for ourselves and others and hope we can ride the fine line between the good life and complete anarchy in society.

No point wasting further time pondering it I suppose.

We should always ponder review and question, the day we stop that as a species is the day the Cats win

frankv

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#1351095 24-Jul-2015 11:32

heylinb4nz:
Nothing wrong with calling religious people weak minded, its more closer to logical reasoning (and also more polite)

The same reasoning could see those who can't write grammatically correct English also being labelled as weak-minded.

Also how dare you mention intolerance HOW DARE YOU!!!, non believers should get a gold medal for tolerance when it comes to pandering to religious people.

- We shape our laws to suit them
- We give them tax free status
- We let them build their churches
- We let them knock on our doors and preach their wares
- We make concessions in our schooling \ childcare system and workplaces
- In the case of the jews we even let them setup organisations like the ADL to legally squash anyone that dares to speak

Actually, *we* non-believers don't do any of those things. We New Zealanders, who also include a large number of religious people, allow these things to continue. You see, religious tolerance is part of the Kiwi culture. The tax free status is a recognition of the valuable work (often unpaid) that religious organisations have done for the community. Presumably most Kiwis think they still provide good value for money, hence their continued tax-free status.

You say "we let them build their churches" like you feel that there ought to be controls on what people can and cannot build... you could equally rant that "we let corporates build supermarkets" or "we let oil companies build petrol stations" or "we let councils build town halls".

Regarding the ADL... I'd never heard of them until you brought it up. But their stated mission has my full support, although I think it's a pity that they feel the need to specifically mention "defamation of the Jewish people".

The mission of the ADL is to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment for all citizens alike.

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#1351096 24-Jul-2015 11:33

heylinb4nz:
joker97: Anyway, I recall doing a paper at uni (or was it high school?) that religion drove science in the early days. That religion and science existed hand in hand. In some ways it still does, in many ways they seem poles apart and mutually exclusive, but that is not necessarily the case, they may still be discovering each other somehow. Science cannot yet explain even the existence of matter (not to mention what happened before/leading up to the big bang), so it has a long way to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404200290.html

Give mankind some credit, are you saying that religion never existed or came about that we would not get to where we are at some point in our existence ? be it another million years later. I dont believe religion today has anything more to offer us in terms of understanding and exploring our planet and universe.

No one knows. It just came to be that people of the past wanted a reason, a story, as to why they existed. I believe that is the theory of existence of beliefs. Probably then evolved into religion if you got enough followers to follow your belief as to the meaning of life.

I only wrote what I recall is the anthropological understanding of the medieval times, that explosion of science corresponded with explosion of religion. In some ways, science defeated religion too, as in Galileo.

Yes it does give hope (all be it false, but hey its still hope for someone in some form), it does good things (Salvation Army etc), it does strengthen families and communities.

But it also carries with it plenty of bad as well.

Now if mankind could do all the good things, without needing or relying on religion to achieve it might just make the world a slightly better and more managable place

can't agree more

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