Red Peak to be added as a 5th option on the referendum

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#1395681 28-Sep-2015 12:23

dafman: A nice little sum up here on Red Peak ...

https://medium.com/@simon.momento/red-peak-the-little-flag-that-could-320d3094585b

That looks like another piece of propaganda from the Red Peak lobby..

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#1395713 28-Sep-2015 12:58

dafman: A nice little sum up here on Red Peak ...

https://medium.com/@simon.momento/red-peak-the-little-flag-that-could-320d3094585b

Nice summary. But I fear it also goes some way to illustrating why Red Peak isn't popular; it needs to be explained to be understood.

I initially didn't like it at all (I was actually a closet Kyle Lockwood flag design fan). But once I explored more about what does and doesn't make a good flag, it made a lot more sense. So much so, that it's the only logical choice in the final five.

What is really baffling to me is that some of this knowledge was gleaned from a "What makes a good flag" video on the official flag change site. It goes to show that the flag committee had this information at their disposal, and yet they chose to completely ignore it when compiling their list of the final four.

bazzer

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#1395726 28-Sep-2015 13:07

One of the main points that seems to have been made in Red Peak's favour is that it's more "flag-like". The problem is, they hand pick a bunch of "flaggy" looking flags to compare them to. If you look through all the world's flags, heaps of them do not use "simple geometric shapes, and careful attention to lines of symmetry".

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#1395760 28-Sep-2015 13:52

bluedisk:

A whole lot of opinions here, not necessarily fact.

Yes necessarily fact.

Are you sure that the designer Aaron Dustin is "spruiking" merchandise from their website? I have just googled Red Peak, and the search didn't come up with such a site. Are you thinking of the Red Peak FB page, in which case are you sure that Aaron Dustin is behind this site? I'm not sure thats the case.

No, refer Aaron Dustin's Tumblr site at aotearoaflag.tumblr.com. With a note at the bottom saying "Buy the flag! Proceeds go to support the cause!" (what cause?!? And it angers me that he has a "cause" to hammer his flag into the ballot when it lost) and of course the mandatory note that the design is copyrighted so you're not allowed to use it commercially.

It was rated 35 out of 40, not 38 as claimed.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72339157/a-comprehensive-history-of-red-peak "A survey conducted of 1000 New Zealanders by market research company UMR from August 25 to August 31 placed Red Peak as the public's 35th option overall. It ranked as the fourth least favourite design in the same sample group, and the overall least preferred in the Maori demographic and for Green voters."

Oh, right. 35th. Yet somehow it beat 30 others to make the top of the shortlist? If that's not hijacking democracy, I don't know what is.

Ok so what if the short time allocated for the public to make up their mind wasn't long enough, or there wasn't enough open debate through a lack of interest? Whats wrong with people saying, hang on the choice is not there in the 4 finalists, lets have another look.

I agree that the process has turned bullshirt, but it is what it is. Thats why people are reacting on social media, and I welcome the discussion. You and I are not going to agree on the flag design, but lets agree to disagree and let the process work itself out from here on.

That's another thing that annoys me about the Red Peak supporters. Anytime anyone points out that the public overwhelmingly did not support their pet flag, they fall back on "oh, there just wasn't enough time to review the options, or it totally would have been included". And how because Red Peak wasn't in the finalists, as you say, "the choice isn't there in the four finalists".

No, the choices are, they (and the majority of the country that cared enough to participate in the process) just don't agree with you.

dafman: A nice little sum up here on Red Peak ...

https://medium.com/@simon.momento/red-peak-the-little-flag-that-could-320d3094585b

Propaganda piece. If you go with that one, the current New Zealand flag is not a flag because it "doesn't retain accessibility at scale" (by which I mean, "doesn't look so good if you minimise it to a size that you will never minimise a flag to"), doesn't "look like a flag" (seriously, wtf? What sort of subjective tripe is this?), doesn't "play nicely with others" (we can all agree it does, but the person authoring this article insists that only Red Peak "plays nicely with others" despite the fact that the Kyle Lockwood designs, which - full disclosure - I don't even like, are virtually identical in design), and doesn't use "pure design" (whatever the flak that means).

No, I assign zero credibility to that piece. It's not a nice little sum up at all, it's a sales pitch based on misinformation.

/rant

bazzer: One of the main points that seems to have been made in Red Peak's favour is that it's more "flag-like". The problem is, they hand pick a bunch of "flaggy" looking flags to compare them to. If you look through all the world's flags, heaps of them do not use "simple geometric shapes, and careful attention to lines of symmetry".

Haha. You mean like New Zealand's flag? Apparently it's not a flag according to them. Neither is Australia's. Or Canada's (because it's not a simpler geometric shape).

bazzer

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#1395765 28-Sep-2015 14:02

Kyanar:
bazzer: One of the main points that seems to have been made in Red Peak's favour is that it's more "flag-like". The problem is, they hand pick a bunch of "flaggy" looking flags to compare them to. If you look through all the world's flags, heaps of them do not use "simple geometric shapes, and careful attention to lines of symmetry".

Haha. You mean like New Zealand's flag? Apparently it's not a flag according to them. Neither is Australia's. Or Canada's (because it's not a simpler geometric shape).

Pretty much. Same with the "design principles".

I suppose those could be more reasons to replace our current flag. If we're going to, may as well make it a good one though, and I don't know that Red Peak is it.

bluedisk

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#1395805 28-Sep-2015 14:38

umblr site at aotearoaflag.tumblr.com. With a note at the bottom saying "Buy the flag! Proceeds go to support the cause!" (what cause?!? And it angers me that he has a "cause" to hammer his flag into the ballot when it lost) and of course the mandatory note that the design is copyrighted so you're not allowed to use it commercially.

Great site thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that one. I had to scroll right down to the bottom after reading what its all about before a saw a small link to a retail site. He's not making money from it, and why shouldn't it be a cause?
Its a great cause. Fantastic, we get to have a mature comversation about our identity which doesn't involve rugby. Refreshing!

Life is a daring adventure or nothing at all...

Kyanar

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#1395808 28-Sep-2015 14:45

bluedisk:

Great site thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that one. I had to scroll right down to the bottom after reading what its all about before a saw a small link to a retail site. He's not making money from it, and why shouldn't it be a cause?

No, it's not a great cause. This is the sort of debate/conversation that should have no vested interests trying to drive it. In fact, there should have been a conversation started outside this referendum - which should not have even been announced without giving the public a few months to digest and talk about whether changing the flag is even something that needs to happen. Only once it's sunk into the collective consciousness should public polling have begun, and I believe it should have been outright forbidden to engage in any form of marketing (whether that be by advertising, or even social media) to influence the outcome. People should have also been left for 2-3 months to look at the options and make their call (and no, I don't think Red Peak would have magically won if this happened).

Its a great cause. Fantastic, we get to have a mature comversation about our identity which doesn't involve rugby. Refreshing!

(Edited to drop the tone a bit) I find it quite irritating that to Red Peak supporters it's awersome that we're having a mature and informed discussion... unless you don't support Red Peak, in which case you're just an idiot who "doesn't get it" and "don't understand flag designs".

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nate

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#1395828 28-Sep-2015 15:02

Just hidden a couple of posts as they were personal attacks and against the FUGs here.

Let's please keep this civil.

bluedisk

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#1395901 28-Sep-2015 16:52

to drop the tone a bit) I find it quite irritating that to Red Peak supporters it's awersome that we're having a mature and informed discussion... unless you don't support Red Peak, in which case you're just an idiot who "doesn't get it" and "don't understand flag designs".

I have kept my discussion very civil and have never called anyone an idiot who "doesn't get it". I thought by commenting in a professional forum like this we could have avoided the name calling and defensive attitudes like those found elsewhere on the net.

What have we got to be afraid of by talking about such important matters openly and constructively? Nothing really, we might just end up with a new flag that most are happy with.

I wouldn't call myself a Red Peak fanboy, but I do like the " boy" bit. I'm just an individual who is ready for a new direction with this.

Life is a daring adventure or nothing at all...

eracode

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#1396236 29-Sep-2015 05:33

LookingUp: Can we add another referendum option please...?

f) Politely ask Australia if they'll change their flag next time they change Prime Minister

When Australia changes its Prime Minister, it's a good time to change the batteries in your smoke alarms.

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

MikeB4

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#1396268 29-Sep-2015 07:27

eracode:
LookingUp: Can we add another referendum option please...?

f) Politely ask Australia if they'll change their flag next time they change Prime Minister

When Australia changes its Prime Minister, it's a good time to change the batteries in your smoke alarms.

This is a plan Sam

Dratsab

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#1396362 29-Sep-2015 09:46

bluedisk: Are you sure that the designer Aaron Dustin is "spruiking" merchandise from their website? I have just googled Red Peak, and the search didn't come up with such a site. Are you thinking of the Red Peak FB page, in which case are you sure that Aaron Dustin is behind this site? I'm not sure thats the case.

bluedisk:
No, refer Aaron Dustin's Tumblr site at aotearoaflag.tumblr.com. With a note at the bottom saying "Buy the flag! Proceeds go to support the cause!" (what cause?!? And it angers me that he has a "cause" to hammer his flag into the ballot when it lost) and of course the mandatory note that the design is copyrighted so you're not allowed to use it commercially.

Great site thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that one. I had to scroll right down to the bottom after reading what its all about before a saw a small link to a retail site. He's not making money from it, and why shouldn't it be a cause?
Its a great cause. Fantastic, we get to have a mature comversation about our identity which doesn't involve rugby. Refreshing!

bluedisk:
umblr site at aotearoaflag.tumblr.com. With a note at the bottom saying "Buy the flag! Proceeds go to support the cause!" (what cause?!? And it angers me that he has a "cause" to hammer his flag into the ballot when it lost) and of course the mandatory note that the design is copyrighted so you're not allowed to use it commercially.

Great site thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that one. I had to scroll right down to the bottom after reading what its all about before a saw a small link to a retail site. He's not making money from it, and why shouldn't it be a cause?

He is making of money from it - here's his sales website. Obviously, impossible to know how many sales he's made, but I'll bet there's been plenty from the Facebook supporters. Website registration details (screen snip) here.

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#1396377 29-Sep-2015 09:59

bazzer: One of the main points that seems to have been made in Red Peak's favour is that it's more "flag-like". The problem is, they hand pick a bunch of "flaggy" looking flags to compare them to. If you look through all the world's flags, heaps of them do not use "simple geometric shapes, and careful attention to lines of symmetry".

Yeah, but heaps of guys wear those pants with the crotch way down by their knees too. Doesn't mean they look good.

Kyanar

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#1396468 29-Sep-2015 11:19

Dratsab:
He is making of money from it - here's his sales website. Obviously, impossible to know how many sales he's made, but I'll bet there's been plenty from the Facebook supporters. Website registration details (screen snip) here.

Ah, but you know the proceeds are going towards manipulating the popu... sorry, "promoting Red Peak as an option to all New Zealanders" - which is exactly what annoys me; no one should be allowed to promote or otherwise market their submission. People should be left to decide based on simply seeing them. Hell, the government should maybe produce a few of them and rotate them on key buildings in all the major cities and see what people think seeing them actually flying. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than the current process, and a neat way to give people a chance to make their own minds up rather than having a bunch of people on Facebook and Twitter deciding for them.

Paul1977:
bazzer: One of the main points that seems to have been made in Red Peak's favour is that it's more "flag-like". The problem is, they hand pick a bunch of "flaggy" looking flags to compare them to. If you look through all the world's flags, heaps of them do not use "simple geometric shapes, and careful attention to lines of symmetry".

Yeah, but heaps of guys wear those pants with the crotch way down by their knees too. Doesn't mean they look good.

I think the point he's trying to make is more that they decided what the definition of a flag was, then chose a bunch of them that looked like they met their favoured definition. When in reality such a definition excludes such flags as New Zealand's, the USA, Canada, Australia, Angola, Algeria, Bhutan, Malaysia, Gibraltar, Papua New Guinea, Uruguay, Swaziland, Sri Lanka, Wales, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Northern Ireland, Macau, Nepal, Fiji... you get the picture. In fact I'd say there's even numbers of "flaggy" by their definition flags that there are complex flags, or asymmetrical flags. Almost like they made up the definition of a flag to fit their agenda! Fancy that!

Dratsab

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#1396515 29-Sep-2015 11:57

Kyanar: Ah, but you know the proceeds are going towards manipulating the popu... sorry, "promoting Red Peak as an option to all New Zealanders" - which is exactly what annoys me; no one should be allowed to promote or otherwise market their submission.

My theory, based on absolutely nothing, is that if Aaron Dustin's flag comes out on top in the referendum he will offer a royalty-free licence to the NZ Government on the proviso he retains all copyright in respect of non-governmental use, thus guaranteeing an income stream* for many years to come.

Kyanar: People should be left to decide based on simply seeing them. Hell, the government should maybe produce a few of them and rotate them on key buildings in all the major cities and see what people think seeing them actually flying. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than the current process, and a neat way to give people a chance to make their own minds up rather than having a bunch of people on Facebook and Twitter deciding for them.

Brilliant idea - shame it's too late for something that.

EDIT: *for him and his business partner Teina Moana HERZER. Whether people agree or disagree with this (bearing in mind it's only my theory), I tend think it's a smart [business] move.

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