FTTH/Quad-play in New Zealand

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Master Geek
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#352861 18-Jul-2010 00:59

hellonearthisman: Mauricio is right about the 100GB bandwidth fair use, it's a little low.
I get 100GB a month from my ISP and it cost under $50
With movies offered, then you would only be able to watch 10 before that cap was exceeded.
250GB - 500GB is more what is wanted.

Also, if you just reselling Telstra/Clear then why don't they provide a better level of internet today?

If we offered VoD and IPTV, this would NOT be included in the data cap. If possible, we would even try to peer directly with TVNZ and Mediaworks so that their VoD services don't contribute either.

Likewise with Linux distros, Windows updates, Apple updates and things like PSN and XBL. The more mirroring, caching and peering we can do to lower the total cost of bandwidth, the better.

Anyway, as I was saying in the post mentioning 100GB, this number is merely speculation based on a faint memory from a few months ago that the cost is about $0.50 per GB... the actual numbers will be in my trusty spreadsheets.

mgcarley

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#352862 18-Jul-2010 01:10

jtbthatsme: Well after reading through this and thinking about what the OP has suggested as a possible new offering into the (what i honestly believe is a currently pathetic offering in the) NZ market. I am surprised at your responses all (mostly) being so negative.

In fact I would even go as far as to say i am actually ashamed to see some of those responses. Here is someone (yes we don't know much about the OP and how genuine he is being not that he has any reason to not be) that is making a suggestion to go beyond anything available in NZ and what do you all do??? You pretty much all say he's crazy and it can't be done like he has said.

Reading through his initial post I would say that the OP has already done significant research about the possibility and cost to actually put this into effect. I am going to say even if he could offer half as good a service to what he is talking about offering I am all for it. Not only that but I think you have proved that you want all the benefits at basically all the cost on the provider and no cost to you.

Get real people NZ has a substandard service from monopolistic providers who in reality could offer a lot better than what they currently do and still make a good profit. NZ lacks decent speeds and lacks decent sized data plans.

I have been slammed on here before for saying that our main providers could offer more than what they currently do and make profit but if you seriously believe they can't then I share this site with some very narrowed minded people.

Mauricio please accept my apologies for anyone whom i offend here but I find a lot of these replies quite offensive to the OP.

As to the OP I commend you sir and if you think you can make a viable situation anything like what you have mentioned I wish you good luck and if you make it down to Wellington way I would gladly pay a relatively high priced initial ouytlay to get something this good.

Good Luck I hope this happens. NZ needs people like you to help move this country forward.

Thanks for the kudos.

I don't mind the speculation - it's normal. Of course this is all new and which must be proven... and I am self-professedly a bit crazy... but having researched this for 2 years to get it going in India and then coming home to find a similar situation in NZ meant that I've been able to apply most of the same principals in both countries, just replacing some numbers with others.

Not to mention personal experience with ISPs as both a consumer and a business user in countries including but not limited to France, Finland, Japan, India, Singapore, Georgia, Romania and Ukraine - my arguments in this thread and others being drawn on how it is in other countries and how we could if we really tried, make this little country a world-leader by drawing from the best services available worldwide.

Additionally, anything I have said about the NZ market is based on words from meetings with Velocity Networks, TelstraClear, Chorus, Telecom, Orcon, WorldXChange, MPs from both National and Labour and most importantly, actual consumers.

The only person I've not met yet is Stephen Joyce but that meeting is being arranged.

mgcarley

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Master Geek
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#352868 18-Jul-2010 01:25

freitasm: I believe the providers could and should offer more than what they offer. I am personally not saying it can't be done - of course it can. But the realities in India and New Zealand are different.

While most of national traffic (about 70% - 80%) is mainly to/from AKL/WLG thanks to Trade Me and their dual data centre (which reverse roles every few months), international traffic is mainly coming from the US and Europe. I would invest a lot more in links to Australia and US than to India.

As for FTTH, there are a vast network of FTTN that Telecom has been deploying with their cabinetisation program, plus other optical city networks deployed by likes of Citylink, Vector and others.

The problem with FTTH is that list mile, and the way I see it, it will cost more in permits and roll out of those than stringing a cable over the ocean floor.

Now, I am mostly pointing problems, because I'd love to see the proposed solutions. That's all. In no moment I am saying it shouldn't be done. If you have the means, the connections, go for it.

I intend to. As it happens, I did also mention Singapore and Taiwan, but no-one seems to have asked why I would connect to India. So I'll tell you.

I think what most people don't realize is that the 3 major private Indian telcos own very, very large chunks of International Fiber.

Bharti owns about 18Tbit/s in total on 5 cables *just* in and out of India, so I'm not even counting any of their other projects which do not touch Indian shores.

Tata owns about 10Tbit/s *just* in and out of India (some of which is shared with Bharti as they are both on the consortium which owns SMW4). Tata also owns what used to be TYCO communications, so they have about 20 cables going between the USA and Europe.

Reliance owns, in full, what used to be FLAG Telecom, including FALCON and the other two or 3 components which make up a 30,000km global ring.

India's broadband population is about 8 million at the moment, but, interestingly, SMW4 is only 35% lit. I-ME-WE and EIG are relatively new so very small amounts of those are lit. i2i is an 8Tbit/s link to Singapore but likewise is nowhere near full capacity. In fact, about 7 of the ~23Tbit/s in total capacity has been commissioned in the past year, and of that 23Tbit/s capacity, only a small fraction is even in use.

What does this mean? Lots of Singapore-Europe and HK-Europe capacity is available, and it all goes via Chennai and Mumbai. All the more reason to do a lot of peering in Singapore and HK, and/or a half-good reason to link directly to India and peer privately there to get a quicker route to Europe through what is mostly empty sea in the southern-hemisphere at those longitudes.

insane

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#352871 18-Jul-2010 01:31

How much $$ are you planning on investing here because so far what you've spoken about would require a legion of investors, or a few powerful ones.

If you really are planning to do what you say then it would certainly create quite a stir in the NZ marketplace and competition is pretty much always a good thing.

Realistically when do you see yourself offering your service here?

mgcarley

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Master Geek
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#352874 18-Jul-2010 01:43

insane: How much $$ are you planning on investing here because so far what you've spoken about would require a legion of investors, or a few powerful ones.

If you really are planning to do what you say then it would certainly create quite a stir in the NZ marketplace and competition is pretty much always a good thing.

Realistically when do you see yourself offering your service here?

As much as is needed. The pilot is costing less than NZ$100,000, but we are prepared for significantly more from investors both domestic and international.

The government wants to see a basic service before the end of the year, however I think this is more of a photo-opportunity than any actual progress (they haven't even announced the winners for each region yet).

I'd say beginning next year we should be, at the very least, expanding the pilot and providing commercial service in at least a few neighbourhoods. Better to go steady and ensure everything works before announcing a nationwide roll-out.

insane

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#352878 18-Jul-2010 01:52

right, so you're wanting to enter as a wholesale provider as part of the governments FTTH project? or am I misunderstanding you?

mgcarley

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#352879 18-Jul-2010 02:03

insane: right, so you're wanting to enter as a wholesale provider as part of the governments FTTH project? or am I misunderstanding you?

A bit of both. If we build a network, we don't want to be supplanted by the government, so we would want to make it open-access for anyone wanting to utilize it, however the focus is on the retail market, both for consumers and businesses, providing fast, reliable service with an unsurpassed range of plans.

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webwat

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#352881 18-Jul-2010 02:26

Even *if* it cost billions of dollars, I live in a city where something like 5 of the top-10 richest people in the world live, and even more in the top-100. Money is not hard to find.

While you are right in that FTTH infrastructure basically doesn't exist, there is FTTN - TelstraClear has that, which significantly reduces my overall deployment costs. Telstra will also deliver me bandwidth anywhere in the country if their network already goes there for no extra charge, whereas had I purchased from FX or someone like that, I'd be paying for International + Auckland to Hamilton (or where-ever I wanted to start).

In addition, Telstra claims that, despite Telecom owning half of SxC, they are utilizing 67% of the lit capacity, whereas Telecom is utilizing the rest (meaning that presumably TC are easier to deal with, and probably the other suppliers who can offer SxC capacity use TC as a point of contact or something).

I have been in contact with Pacific Fibre re: their Australia cable, but we're also talking to Bharti about an India-NZ link, Chunghwa about Taiwan-NZ and Singtel about Singapore-NZ. Since I buy a lot of bandwidth from Bharti already AND they have funds for things just like this, if the business case is there they might be inclined to help out.

As for the large users, we would anticipate that if users are trying to leech a terabyte of international capacity, we'd be within our rights to throttle their speed to 256k when the usage got to an "unreasonable level" - say 100GB - and from what I've seen $50-60 for 100GB would be quite a bargain. Considering that we would be highly interested in bringing back the NZ-traffic for free/cheap model, there's also no reason that as more people joined our network and/or networks with whom we directly peer, speeds would go up and costs would come down.

Of course, numbers are all theoretical at the moment and based on a different scenario so we'll see with our pilot how much it all comes to in practice and how people do actually use the connections.

Why try to start a new network? CFH is nearly ready to decide on the proposals its received and I'm sure some of the existing FTTH players in each region might accept an extra financial partner. Perhaps you might like to provide an alternative Layer 2 network over the government funded FTTH, allowing you to se ONTs that support your QuadPlay requirements. Internal house wiring is going to be a major obstacle in many suburbs where there is phone wiring and nothing else, so you might need to take that onboard and go with HPNA hardware. Southern Cross is a choke point but you can choose from whatever international providers if you have a node at Sky Tower. Best to chat with Mr Tindall about new cables, but try to avoid fault-prone areas like Luzon Strait and other areas that cause ongoing maintenance for Southern Cross.

Time to find a new industry!

insane

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#352882 18-Jul-2010 02:37

mgcarley:
insane: right, so you're wanting to enter as a wholesale provider as part of the governments FTTH project? or am I misunderstanding you?

A bit of both. If we build a network, we don't want to be supplanted by the government, so we would want to make it open-access for anyone wanting to utilize it, however the focus is on the retail market, both for consumers and businesses, providing fast, reliable service with an unsurpassed range of plans.

My understanding is that if you want to be part of the governments FTTH initiative or at least receive funding then you'd have to be one or the other and not both at the same time. Much the reason why Telecom is considering whether or not to spin off Telecom/Xtra Retail.

hellonearthisman

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#352951 18-Jul-2010 12:36

Would like to see more international capacity, even if it would not suit gaming 100ms min ping not sure if the quad play would be such a win, but it sounds nice.

Good luck.

Oh and you have seen this $900 million project to link nz -> us and nz -> oz -> Singapore
http://www.interest.co.nz/news/sam-morgan-stephen-tindall-and-rod-drury-plan-build-new-pacific-fibre...
Why not chip in with them, there plans are more than just talkings.

kyhwana2

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#352954 18-Jul-2010 12:47

hellonearthisman: Would like to see more international capacity, even if it would not suit gaming 100ms min ping not sure if the quad play would be such a win, but it sounds nice.

Ping times to the US north west coast is ~170-220ms, depending..
Although supposedly the new planned cable to the US would cut that down by 5-15?ms.

But yes, more and cheaper international would be better. Remember the ISPs still have to buy it, so if it's cheaper, they can buy more at the same price :)

freitasm

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#352958 18-Jul-2010 12:53

hellonearthisman: Oh and you have seen this $900 million project to link nz -> us and nz -> oz -> Singapore http://www.interest.co.nz/news/sam-morgan-stephen-tindall-and-rod-drury-plan-build-new-pacific-fibre... Why not chip in with them, there plans are more than just talkings.

He already said that in the first page:

mgcarley: I have been in contact with Pacific Fibre re: their Australia cable, but we're also talking to Bharti about an India-NZ link, Chunghwa about Taiwan-NZ and Singtel about Singapore-NZ. Since I buy a lot of bandwidth from Bharti already AND they have funds for things just like this, if the business case is there they might be inclined to help out.

Lias

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#352962 18-Jul-2010 13:01

kyhwana2:
hellonearthisman: Would like to see more international capacity, even if it would not suit gaming 100ms min ping not sure if the quad play would be such a win, but it sounds nice.

Ping times to the US north west coast is ~170-220ms, depending..
Although supposedly the new planned cable to the US would cut that down by 5-15?ms.

But yes, more and cheaper international would be better. Remember the ISPs still have to buy it, so if it's cheaper, they can buy more at the same price :)

The first networking company that figures out how to reduce latency on long distance undersea cables is going to be sodding rich. The number of WoW players on the planet alone says so :-)

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kyhwana2

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#352963 18-Jul-2010 13:04

Lias:

The first networking company that figures out how to reduce latency on long distance undersea cables is going to be sodding rich. The number of WoW players on the planet alone says so :-)

Well, it won't be a networking company, it'll be some research group that gets quantum engtanglment working where they can sell it commercially.

(Since you'll need to go FTL to get the ping times down anymore)

hellonearthisman

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#352979 18-Jul-2010 14:48

Woops, Sorry I missed that bit Mauricio, Thanks for point it out.

I also computed the speeds using Wolfram alpha, which is as a crow flys.

NZ to USA light in fiber | 58.7 ms (milliseconds)

NZ to Singapore light in fiber | 39.5 ms (milliseconds)
Singapore to USA light in fiber | 70.8 ms (milliseconds)

So if the real world speeds are 4x then USA via Singapore would be 400ms which would kill real time activities like gaming or jamming.

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