Another thread about the parts of the country that still can't get broadband

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Another thread about the parts of the country that still can't get broadband

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#2155442 6-Jan-2019 20:45

sbiddle:

Reading the story they talk about their EFTPOS dropping out and their mobile broadband - are they a classic example of somebody who Spark have moved off copper onto wireless and now trying to a run a business over that rather than staying on copper which should deliver them a rock solid solution?

@sbiddle

Wired Eftpos machines can also be plugged into the internet.

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raytaylor

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#2155445 6-Jan-2019 20:48

I have been quoted $40 per metre for directional drilling.
Approx $10 per metre for a microduct with inner ducts

And then about 50c per metre for 6 core micro fiber.

Plus then you have manholes, splicing trays, and all the other stuff that goes with it.

Side note, I do have a GPON connection with chorus running over 24kms. I dont think they can add any other houses to it as a splitter would bring the signal down too low.

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MichaelNZ

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#2155447 6-Jan-2019 20:53

freitasm:

snnet:

This whole discussion about lack of broadband availability to every part of NZ now seems null and void to me. I was just working at a certain rural address and the owners proclaimed that their new neighbour across the road is high up in Chorus and was disgusted with the lack of signal for wireless and rubbish (but VDSL capable) fixed line broadband so he's apparently made sure there's money allocated for fibre to the gate of his new house.

A friend-of-a-friend tale. An urban legend. It doesn't sound right...

I have heard similar stuff too.

Not to mention a certain well known ex-MP who told me they got DSL installed to their rural home because Parlimentary Services had a word with Telecom/Chorus (I didn't ask the date).

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#2155450 6-Jan-2019 21:01

atomeara: I asked if they would retain any copper backhaul technology, I am still waiting for an answer, it was asked a week out from Christmas so they have been away (I suspect the answer is no, everything will go fibre or eDMR)

If Chorus are serious about shutting down ATM I can't see them deploying any Copper based backhaul as it would still require some stack to manage and monitor it and Chorus are trying to simplify their network.
The issue I see is I didn't really see Spark or Chorus making a serious play to get off ATM but this was almost a year ago so things may have changed. Both of them still had services on there and I saw them both playing chicken to see who got off first so the other would be landed with the full operate and decommission cost.
There is so much legacy gear in the old Telecom network that large corporates depend on including ATM circuits for bank ATMs and such like that switching anything really off is hard as you may only earn $50k off the connections so they are running at a loss but as part of a $5M contract it pays to keep them happy. Since if you played hardball and shutdown the network a valuable customer would be lost forever.
When I was there I had wanted to shutdown dialup. But never succeeded.

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#2155457 6-Jan-2019 21:29

BarTender:
When I was there I had wanted to shutdown dialup. But never succeeded.

thought we dropped it before you left not after...

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snnet

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#2155459 6-Jan-2019 21:33

Isn't it still available for $20/month unlimited? :D

Just read that today on one of the forums here...

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atomeara

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#2155463 6-Jan-2019 21:46

BarTender:
atomeara: I asked if they would retain any copper backhaul technology, I am still waiting for an answer, it was asked a week out from Christmas so they have been away (I suspect the answer is no, everything will go fibre or eDMR)

If Chorus are serious about shutting down ATM I can't see them deploying any Copper based backhaul as it would still require some stack to manage and monitor it and Chorus are trying to simplify their network.
The issue I see is I didn't really see Spark or Chorus making a serious play to get off ATM but this was almost a year ago so things may have changed. Both of them still had services on there and I saw them both playing chicken to see who got off first so the other would be landed with the full operate and decommission cost.
There is so much legacy gear in the old Telecom network that large corporates depend on including ATM circuits for bank ATMs and such like that switching anything really off is hard as you may only earn $50k off the connections so they are running at a loss but as part of a $5M contract it pays to keep them happy. Since if you played hardball and shutdown the network a valuable customer would be lost forever.
When I was there I had wanted to shutdown dialup. But never succeeded.

Yes I agree. It does not make sense to run copper backhaul.

I have heard of the ATM games between between Spark and Chorus for years too.

Chorus are serious about removing all the legacy network. It looks like everything until end of FY (so June/July) has been funded and work is underway, I have seen a raft of traffic management plans to Auckland Transport from Downer with the Chorus Cabient Name in the name. I went and eye balled one in Titirangi last week, new ducting the whole way up.
I don't think the plans for next year have been signed off as far as approving the dollar figure but I can't see them doing half of them and stopping.

I am waiting to see what they do with Opito Bay on the Coromandel it is either like for like with eDMR or they will run fibre the whole way (I am hoping for fibre), my Chorus contact told me they had not yet decided.

Chorus are not really at risk or stuck with upsetting that big enterprise customer. When I was at ASB more than 10 years ago they moved the ATM machines over to One Office Serial then One Office Lite. The cost savings made from moving to One Office Lite were huge (it was around GFC time so they were focused on reducing costs and we made a decent dent in the bill)

The option of going to another telco and retaining legacy services is pretty much impossible. I have very limited sympathy for anyone staying on legacy services, parts and support are normally hard to find. Costs are high. Things often haven't been kept updated or maintained which has got them into that situation to start with.

But I do get where you are coming from. I think all the telcos are in such a big cost saving drive they will end up killing most of the legacy services anyway. Spark has shown that with the whole PSTN shutdown.

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#2155466 6-Jan-2019 21:48

snnet:
Isn't it still available for $20/month unlimited? :D

Just read that today on one of the forums here...

not with spark.

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Coil

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#2155527 7-Jan-2019 07:48

hio77:
snnet:

Isn't it still available for $20/month unlimited? :D

Just read that today on one of the forums here...

not with spark.

When I was at VF, every BB username/PPP details could be used for dialup, as long as you had active BB.

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#2155536 7-Jan-2019 08:24

MichaelNZ:

sbiddle:

Reading the story they talk about their EFTPOS dropping out and their mobile broadband - are they a classic example of somebody who Spark have moved off copper onto wireless and now trying to a run a business over that rather than staying on copper which should deliver them a rock solid solution?

@sbiddle

Wired Eftpos machines can also be plugged into the internet.

I'm fully aware of that. But when they mentioned mobile broadband issues and EFTPOS it sounded like they were a) trying to run 3G EFTPOS terminals or b) running their premises on FWA with EFTPOS over it, both of which are dump solutions when there is a perfectly usable copper network.

hio77

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#2155539 7-Jan-2019 08:26

sbiddle:
MichaelNZ:

sbiddle:

Reading the story they talk about their EFTPOS dropping out and their mobile broadband - are they a classic example of somebody who Spark have moved off copper onto wireless and now trying to a run a business over that rather than staying on copper which should deliver them a rock solid solution?

@sbiddle

Wired Eftpos machines can also be plugged into the internet.

I'm fully aware of that. But when they mentioned mobile broadband issues and EFTPOS it sounded like they were a) trying to run 3G EFTPOS terminals or b) running their premises on FWA with EFTPOS over it, both of which are dump solutions when there is a perfectly usable copper network.

Not the case at all.

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BarTender

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#2155546 7-Jan-2019 08:51

atomeara: The option of going to another telco and retaining legacy services is pretty much impossible. I have very limited sympathy for anyone staying on legacy services, parts and support are normally hard to find. Costs are high. Things often haven't been kept updated or maintained which has got them into that situation to start with.

But I do get where you are coming from. I think all the telcos are in such a big cost saving drive they will end up killing most of the legacy services anyway. Spark has shown that with the whole PSTN shutdown.

I agree that another telco isn't going to offer the services but the main concern was if a client was forced to change a core part of their stack for a non-trivial amount of money that would anger the client and that would typically be off a proprietary stack onto a standard IP based solution all the stickability would be lost. Then there would be nothing stopping the client moving to a lower cost business provider or moving to a pure internet based offering at the regional sites rather than a private leased connection which was where the real money was at.

To me that was a foolish business model as it created and nurtured a dual-dependency between the provider and the client based on not providing innovation for services for the customers. It also avoided the uncomfortable conversations "Look you are on this really old tech and we are concerned if there was a card failure there could be a high chance it might never come back". As often those innovations would lead to a lower cost for the client and thus less revenue for the provider.

Look at the whole pager network debacle. No one wanted to spend the money required to keep it going and it had been on life support for years thanks to a few very talented engineers who had thought ahead and sourced plenty of spares on the second hand market. Then Spark finally gave a close date and the deal for NZ Fire to fund Spark to upgrade the network and it would be private for NZ Fire only.

BarTender

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#2155547 7-Jan-2019 08:55

hio77:
BarTender:
When I was there I had wanted to shutdown dialup. But never succeeded.
thought we dropped it before you left not after...

Nope, I had lobbied hard for it but it seems the call was made one month after I had left (March) and somehow I had missed the Geekzone thread.

Me leaving was probably the final straw as none of the other guys were interested in learning how the stack worked even though I tried to teach them.

Hooray at least I did something right, it was only after I left it happened. See you later 087303030.

Lastman

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#2155610 7-Jan-2019 09:59

BarTender:
Lastman: People are saying rural expansion is vastly more expensive but are not giving details, I’m just trying to get a handle on it. Urban installations also require ONTs and traffic management etc.

Power companies, Unison in my area, may see it worthwhile but Chorus have more fibre in the ground. Also, Chorus get pretty interested, pretty quick when someone’s heading for their patch, which is part of the reason for the staistic starting the thread.

The main cost is trenching in new fibre many KMs. The OLT which is the other end of the ONT in your house is around 100K from memory depending on which model. Then the Long Range 40k 10gbit optics and any repeaters tend to bump up the cost when the run goes over 40k.
Plus you often have new core links required from a central region to the new exchange and then from the exchange to your address.

So my rule of thumb is $10k per km. Then add $100k if a new OLT is required as a location is over 10km away from an existing exchange that already has fibre and just required a new connection.
Then add another 10% for contingency or so.
Lastly one issue I knew of was resourcing as Chorus is paid for completing the civil work and having the service able to be ordered as part of the UFB build. Downers / Visionstream etc are paid by Chorus to do the work. If they have very tight time-frames to deliver service in urban or semi urban areas sending a crew out to do a single build for a few weeks might have an impact to the UFB build timelines.

Clearly, noone is expecting much until the smoke has cleared from the existing UFB rollouts as that is going to be stretching the resources of time and money for a while.

Then discussions can be done on likely costs of any extensions and depends, no doubt, on knowlege of how the current system is structured for expansion.

The more I think about this debate the more I believe that fibre should, can and probably will be extended to the whole country, in the long term. The whole lot barring the most extremes of habitation.

Lastman

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#2155612 7-Jan-2019 10:06

BarTender:
sbiddle:
Lastman:

Waimarama, an isolated seaside holiday retreat is on the 2022 fibre roll-out, thanks to famous resident Rod Drury, no doubt, but high population/production areas areas like the Heretaunga Plains, Bay of Plenty and the Canterbury Plains will never get it, I don't see that.

Rubbish. It has absolutely nothing to do with Rod.

Waimarama fully meets the requirements of the UFB2+ rollout.

There are plenty of places getting UFB coverage as part of UFB2+ that have similar populations - Hihi (with a 2013 census population of 170 population) and Matapouri (2013 census figure of 160 people) and are just a couple of examples that are both less than Waimarama's 2013 figure of 190

Population density is just as important as population, and in many of these small townships that are (comparatively) dense, UFB simply makes sense.

Knowing Rod a few years ago I know he had point to point broadband installed on his holiday home in Wimaz with a local WISP. I did successfully lobby the internal Spark Mobile COW team to install a COW at the local exchange and then they back hauled it via a microwave link.
So I am sorry unless Rod funded it which I doubt as he was pretty happy with the WISP service he had I am calling BS.
Actually the COW was just a 3G one so they backhauled it over the ATM core with stacked E1s.

I call BS then too, sorry for mentioning it, the cell tower and fibre link are clearly unrelated.

Waimarama does seem a bit of an anomaly, in the area Mahia, comparable size/density isn’t getting it, Waipatu, pretty much sttached to Hastings and similar isn’t getting it, but again, they had to draw the lines somewhere.

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