Objectionable Material & Website Blocking

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#2201998 19-Mar-2019 20:19

freitasm:

Remember though, talking about racism is one thing. Spreading racism is another. I support the first. I do not support the second.

This includes other extremist views that impact peoples' lives.

Sure, I agree. The problem is; who decides what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable speech / content?

Because this is extremely difficult to quantify, it becomes subject to interpretation and the perspective of the receiver.

An example is the 'n...' word. This is a word which refers specifically to a particular race, but can be used in both a negative and positive way, depending on context.

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#2202001 19-Mar-2019 20:21

SamF:

freitasm:

Remember though, talking about racism is one thing. Spreading racism is another. I support the first. I do not support the second.

This includes other extremist views that impact peoples' lives.

Sure, I agree. The problem is; who decides what constitutes acceptable and unacceptable speech / content?

Because this is extremely difficult to quantify, it becomes subject to interpretation and the perspective of the receiver.

An example is the 'n...' word. This is a word which refers specifically to a particular race, but can be used in both a negative and positive way, depending on context.

Classical example of "I know it when I see it"

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pchs

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#2202005 19-Mar-2019 20:28

I think the other thing to be wary of is the way that the ISP's might be pushing to implement filtering - currently its just DNS based, so is pretty rudimentary to bypass by just changing your DNS server to something like Google DNS, It's a pretty rough way to filter but does a good job for most of the population considering the time that the carriers had to implement this.

For the letter to the content providers, playing devils advocate, most of the NZ ISP's have a bit of a internal battle with the likes of Facebook/Google who they see as using their network's for free so we need to be wary they don't turn this political.

The DIA/BGP filter on the other hand is another story, we have already seen a miss-configuration on this filter which took Google offline for for all ISP's connected to it (including Spark) for a couple of hours a few years ago. it also provides the Government full access to all data across the IP that is blocked, as they way it works with BGP means anything blocked at the IP Layer but "ok" at Layer 7 is passed out via Vocus, or whichever carrier the Government chooses. (I doubt they use or track this, but it is technically possible for them to do) again the DIA filter can be pretty ineffective as it can be bypassed by VPN, even one of the members of the taskforce publicly says that he believes it does not work, but is only there to prevent scope creep.

SamF

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#2202012 19-Mar-2019 20:36

pchs:

I think the other thing to be wary of is the way that the ISP's might be pushing to implement filtering - currently its just DNS based, so is pretty rudimentary to bypass by just changing your DNS server to something like Google DNS, It's a pretty rough way to filter but does a good job for most of the population considering the time that the carriers had to implement this.

Yes, that is a good point and perhaps that's enough to protect children and those who do not want to accidentally view this type of material.

I don't think anyone could argue that completely censoring the Internet is possible (just ask China), so IMO there's no point in even trying to do this in a 100% foolproof way. As long as the Internet exists there will always be a way to share any type of data.

However, I think there is a good case for a voluntary filter.

solutionz

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#2202014 19-Mar-2019 20:39

freitasm:

SamF:

I tend to err on the side of 'don't block' as well, because of the potential for abuse and the impact to free speech, which I believe is vital for a fully functional democracy.

Remember though, talking about racism is one thing. Spreading racism is another. I support the first. I do not support the second.

This includes other extremist views that impact peoples' lives.

One of the dangers though is - again in a perfect world - if information is freely available then criticism of that information should thuswise be available.

However when you try censor material (such as the killer's manifesto) then the people who seek it out will still find it available - but without thorough scrutiny, criticism and debunking of the killer's points to balance it out - resulting in echo chambers.

But again, that's an ideal world.

pchs

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#2202018 19-Mar-2019 20:50

SamF:

pchs:

I think the other thing to be wary of is the way that the ISP's might be pushing to implement filtering - currently its just DNS based, so is pretty rudimentary to bypass by just changing your DNS server to something like Google DNS, It's a pretty rough way to filter but does a good job for most of the population considering the time that the carriers had to implement this.

Yes, that is a good point and perhaps that's enough to protect children and those who do not want to accidentally view this type of material.

I don't think anyone could argue that completely censoring the Internet is possible (just ask China), so IMO there's no point in even trying to do this in a 100% foolproof way. As long as the Internet exists there will always be a way to share any type of data.

However, I think there is a good case for a voluntary filter.

I think a voluntary filter would be a great idea, ISP's could easily offer the DIA filter on a per account basis by just having a "DIA VRF" in their network and customers could then opt in via their ISP's portal and turn it on and off as they want. This could potentially allow the DIA to increase its scope without "censoring" the internet.

China does do a pretty good job, there is a lot of technology which can intercept SSL keys, predict if people are using VPN's (I.E all their data is going to one particular IP address) etc, and for the free VPN's, there is no free lunch! those VPN providers get access to all your browsing data and who knows who they are selling that too!

NZGamingIcon

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#2202021 19-Mar-2019 20:55

freitasm:

SamF:

I tend to err on the side of 'don't block' as well, because of the potential for abuse and the impact to free speech, which I believe is vital for a fully functional democracy.

Remember though, talking about racism is one thing. Spreading racism is another. I support the first. I do not support the second.

This includes other extremist views that impact peoples' lives.

That's muddy water, as certain people and groups (I won't name them because I don't want to turn this into a political debate) believe that certain races can't be racist and other race can't experience racism - which is a bunch of hogwash if you ask me.

afe66

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#2202025 19-Mar-2019 20:58

Curious about those who say, I dont support blocking except for kiddie porn.

Why sitting on fence.

You either object to blocking in all its forms or you dont and think there is a role for blocking.

I personally cant see why some say looking at kiddie porn is bad but watching people being _murdered_ is somehow up to the individual.

I think this footage is as objectionable as kiddie porn and those spreading it or dmdrooping hints to their location should be nailed to the wall.

Other people may think I'm unreasonable but I dont care.

freitasm

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#2202029 19-Mar-2019 21:00

NZGamingIcon:

2) Who should make the decision about whether to block such material
Each ISP should make their own decision and let the market decide whether they made the correct decision. Government should have zero influence on ISPs decision.

I disagree here. Most people wouldn't even know their ISP is filtering things - because people are like that, they aren't all technical and talk DNS and UDP, don't read the fineprint either.

An ISP could be run by a nut religious cult organisation and block LGBT sites because they are like that. People join the ISP in one of those 12 and 24 months then find out they can't actually access the whole Internet and are locked into a contract that cost a couple of hundred dollars to get out. Not good.

For some people this would not be objectionable at all. But talk to some "bishops" and there you go...

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Talkiet

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#2202030 19-Mar-2019 21:02

Here's an uncomfortable truth for you all.

People here claiming there should be no censorship or filtering of any kind on the internet, and that even the most despicable illegal content should be carried and available to everyone... Well... You're reinforcing each other's views, making that position seem more popular, common and accepted than it is in wider society.

Guess how a lot of ultra right wing white nationalist movements become emboldened and build their own world view that they are right and need to do something. That's right. Essentially the same process. Their little echo chambers filled with like minded people, reinforcing each others views...

Attempting to have a conversation about censorship and internet filtering on here is simply not going to be possible - we represent NOTHING LIKE a reasonable cross section of society. Sure it might be interesting, but it will in no way be balanced or reflective of what New Zealand values.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

NZGamingIcon

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#2202036 19-Mar-2019 21:15

freitasm:

NZGamingIcon:

2) Who should make the decision about whether to block such material
Each ISP should make their own decision and let the market decide whether they made the correct decision. Government should have zero influence on ISPs decision.

I disagree here. Most people wouldn't even know their ISP is filtering things - because people are like that, they aren't all technical and talk DNS and UDP, don't read the fineprint either.

An ISP could be run by a nut religious cult organisation and block LGBT sites because they are like that. People join the ISP in one of those 12 and 24 months then find out they can't actually access the whole Internet and are locked into a contract that cost a couple of hundred dollars to get out. Not good.

For some people this would not be objectionable at all. But talk to some "bishops" and there you go...

Companies like profit. That doesn't seem like a profitable venture as bad publicity will put off a lot of people from using that ISP.

Let the free market decide "what is good" and "what is bad". The government shouldn't be the one telling us what we should do with our hard earned money.

NZGamingIcon

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#2202037 19-Mar-2019 21:16

Talkiet:

Here's an uncomfortable truth for you all.

People here claiming there should be no censorship or filtering of any kind on the internet, and that even the most despicable illegal content should be carried and available to everyone... Well... You're reinforcing each other's views, making that position seem more popular, common and accepted than it is in wider society.

Guess how a lot of ultra right wing white nationalist movements become emboldened and build their own world view that they are right and need to do something. That's right. Essentially the same process. Their little echo chambers filled with like minded people, reinforcing each others views...

Attempting to have a conversation about censorship and internet filtering on here is simply not going to be possible - we represent NOTHING LIKE a reasonable cross section of society. Sure it might be interesting, but it will in no way be balanced or reflective of what New Zealand values.

Cheers - N

You are correct about censorship leading to echo chambers. There was a good discussion on JRE with Tim Pool and the twitter execs about this.

solutionz

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#2202038 19-Mar-2019 21:19

Talkiet:

Here's an uncomfortable truth for you all.

People here claiming there should be no censorship or filtering of any kind on the internet, and that even the most despicable illegal content should be carried and available to everyone... Well... You're reinforcing each other's views, making that position seem more popular, common and accepted than it is in wider society.

Guess how a lot of ultra right wing white nationalist movements become emboldened and build their own world view that they are right and need to do something. That's right. Essentially the same process. Their little echo chambers filled with like minded people, reinforcing each others views...

Attempting to have a conversation about censorship and internet filtering on here is simply not going to be possible - we represent NOTHING LIKE a reasonable cross section of society. Sure it might be interesting, but it will in no way be balanced or reflective of what New Zealand values.

I'm not sure I agree, seems to be a diverse range of views here...

Are you sure YOU aren't just reflecting your own workplace echo-chamber and/or that of mainstream media & politics?

I think any reasoned individual would have concerns about the erosion of civil liberties - free speech, information etc. Whether it's right or wrong to censor the internet and to what extent - well that's the topic of discussion.

There is certainly a bias toward tech people here however that doesn't automatically make us incapable of intelligent or moral discussion - this isn't 4chan.

Talkiet

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#2202039 19-Mar-2019 21:20

NZGamingIcon:

Talkiet:

Here's an uncomfortable truth for you all.

People here claiming there should be no censorship or filtering of any kind on the internet, and that even the most despicable illegal content should be carried and available to everyone... Well... You're reinforcing each other's views, making that position seem more popular, common and accepted than it is in wider society.

Guess how a lot of ultra right wing white nationalist movements become emboldened and build their own world view that they are right and need to do something. That's right. Essentially the same process. Their little echo chambers filled with like minded people, reinforcing each others views...

Attempting to have a conversation about censorship and internet filtering on here is simply not going to be possible - we represent NOTHING LIKE a reasonable cross section of society. Sure it might be interesting, but it will in no way be balanced or reflective of what New Zealand values.

Cheers - N

You are correct about censorship leading to echo chambers. There was a good discussion on JRE with Tim Pool and the twitter execs about this.

Please read more carefully. I didn't say that. I am not necessarily discounting the discourse (I haven't heard) and I haven't thought about it in any detail, but that's not the point I was making.

In this case it's the massive self selection of the population on here bringing in a massively biased view and thinking that they know what is best for "people" or "New Zealand"...

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Talkiet

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#2202040 19-Mar-2019 21:23

solutionz:

Talkiet:

Here's an uncomfortable truth for you all.

People here claiming there should be no censorship or filtering of any kind on the internet, and that even the most despicable illegal content should be carried and available to everyone... Well... You're reinforcing each other's views, making that position seem more popular, common and accepted than it is in wider society.

Guess how a lot of ultra right wing white nationalist movements become emboldened and build their own world view that they are right and need to do something. That's right. Essentially the same process. Their little echo chambers filled with like minded people, reinforcing each others views...

Attempting to have a conversation about censorship and internet filtering on here is simply not going to be possible - we represent NOTHING LIKE a reasonable cross section of society. Sure it might be interesting, but it will in no way be balanced or reflective of what New Zealand values.

I'm not sure I agree, seems to be a diverse range of views here...

Are you sure YOU aren't just reflecting your own workplace echo-chamber and/or that of mainstream media & politics?

I think any reasoned individual would have concerns about the erosion of civil liberties - free speech, information etc. Whether it's right or wrong to censor the internet and to what extent - well that's the topic of discussion.

There is certainly a bias toward tech people here however that doesn't automatically make us incapable of intelligent or moral discussion - this isn't 4chan.

I'm NOT sure I'm not reflecting my own biases here.... But I acknowedge that. I wholeheartedly believe that I don't (and can't ) know best. However I believe that realising that, and accepting that my opinions might be wrong puts me a huge rung up on ANYONE else here that thinks they are right.

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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