Tivo CGA Claim October 2017

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#1744491 20-Mar-2017 13:18

Jaxson:

Re the EPG service, does anyone know where TIVO were saucing this from? The standard EPG released is 7 days, but assume this is filled with data looking further out in advance anyway though.

Did TiVo/other party do a deal on the side with channels directly to provide this data, or was it pulled from a standard location. Sony PlayTV was (still is?) doing a similar.

As EPG data was (and still is) regarded as intellectual property by NZ networks Tivo entered into agreements to provide EPG data which they then mangle and provide from their own server. A lack of agreement with Prime and Maori TV meant there was no EPG data for these channels for a couple of years after the launch of Tivo.

mattwnz

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#1744492 20-Mar-2017 13:20

sbiddle:

Jaxson:

Re the EPG service, does anyone know where TIVO were saucing this from? The standard EPG released is 7 days, but assume this is filled with data looking further out in advance anyway though.

Did TiVo/other party do a deal on the side with channels directly to provide this data, or was it pulled from a standard location. Sony PlayTV was (still is?) doing a similar.

As EPG data was (and still is) regarded as intellectual property by NZ networks Tivo entered into agreements to provide EPG data which they then mangle and provide from their own server. A lack of agreement with Prime and Maori TV meant there was no EPG data for these channels for a couple of years after the launch of Tivo.

Not sure on the exact year, but it was quite a long time, and I recall it also required a lot of work from tivo owners as well getting in touch with Prime and Maori. That is possibly part of the reason why there are some PO'd tivo owners.

tripp

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#1744494 20-Mar-2017 13:21

Wiggum:

I got my shinny new Tivo in 2011 as a replacement for SkyTV. It was purchased directly from Noel leeming. If I recall correctly I thjink I paid around $350 for it.

When purchasing, I had no idea there was any type of internet service tied to it (I only discovered this later, but then had the same assumption as others here. It was a lifetime service, my lifetime!). It was just another freeview recorder, I realized later that it was never freeview certified. It certainly was marketed as the best available at that time. My Tivo has certainly proved to be just that and I am going to struggle to find a replacement. Honestly, I have no idea what.

I think my $350 has been well spend for the 5 1/2 years of service I have had with this device. I'm just gutted that I am not going to be able to use it any longer. Just the other day I was discussing with a mate on how to upgrade the hard drive. I honestly still believe that if the service was to continue, I would get another 5 years life out of this thing.

My opinion on the CGA claim is that it will most likely fail. I dont really blame Telecom or Noel leeming. I just wish I understood what I really was getting when I purchased. Saying that, if I knew in 2012 what I know now I probably would have still bought the unit. Its served me really well over the years.

Hopefully somebody or some group can keep this service open somehow. I would quiet happily fork out $10 per month for it.

Don't get me wrong, I think what Tivo/Service provider for EPG has left people high and dry and it sucks. I am sure if there was an option for EPG data for $10 a month a lot of people would take it up. The issue however is the "lifetime service". If Tivo came out with "it's shutting down but you can still buy EPG data" then everyone would be up in arms about their "lifetime service license". I can understand why they are just pulling the plug. There is just no money in it for them anymore due to the lifetime service.

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#1744498 20-Mar-2017 13:30

tripp:

Don't get me wrong, I think what Tivo/Service provider for EPG has left people high and dry and it sucks. I am sure if there was an option for EPG data for $10 a month a lot of people would take it up. The issue however is the "lifetime service". If Tivo came out with "it's shutting down but you can still buy EPG data" then everyone would be up in arms about their "lifetime service license". I can understand why they are just pulling the plug. There is just no money in it for them anymore due to the lifetime service.

Tivo itself does exist to provide it, once the Australian providers agreement ends. The Australian provider only had a license for a set period of time. I am guessing the ownership of all our personal information passes over to tivo, although that would be interesting to know under the privacy act what happens to that info? It would contain things such as viewing habits, and programs people have been watching. I notice that they do sell tivos in the US, and you pay more for a lifetime license, which is more similar to what the NZ retail price was taking into account inflation, at https://www.tivo.com/shop/buy-bolt . You can chose a monthly plan, a yearly plan, or an 'all-in service plan' which appears to be the lifetime service plan', which is an extra$ 550 US, which supposedly lasts for the life of the box, and not the person. But who would buy a lifetime one now?

tripp

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#1744500 20-Mar-2017 13:33

mattwnz:

tripp:

Don't get me wrong, I think what Tivo/Service provider for EPG has left people high and dry and it sucks. I am sure if there was an option for EPG data for $10 a month a lot of people would take it up. The issue however is the "lifetime service". If Tivo came out with "it's shutting down but you can still buy EPG data" then everyone would be up in arms about their "lifetime service license". I can understand why they are just pulling the plug. There is just no money in it for them anymore due to the lifetime service.

Tivo itself does exist to provide it, once the Australian providers agreement ends. The Australian provider only had a license for a set period of time. I notice that they do sell tivos in the US, and you pay more for a lifetime license, which is more similar to what the NZ retail price was taking into account inflation, at https://www.tivo.com/shop/buy-bolt . You can chose a monthly plan, a yearly plan, or an 'all-in service plan' which appears to be the lifetime service plan', which is an extra$ 550 US, which supposedly lasts for the life of the box, and not the person.

That EPG data is not cheap. 15US a month, I don't think many people would be happy if Tivo said they would supply it but it would cost you $30 - $40NZ a month (after taking in GST, markup that NZ always gets hit with etc).

mattwnz

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#1744510 20-Mar-2017 13:47

tripp:

mattwnz:

tripp:

Don't get me wrong, I think what Tivo/Service provider for EPG has left people high and dry and it sucks. I am sure if there was an option for EPG data for $10 a month a lot of people would take it up. The issue however is the "lifetime service". If Tivo came out with "it's shutting down but you can still buy EPG data" then everyone would be up in arms about their "lifetime service license". I can understand why they are just pulling the plug. There is just no money in it for them anymore due to the lifetime service.

Tivo itself does exist to provide it, once the Australian providers agreement ends. The Australian provider only had a license for a set period of time. I notice that they do sell tivos in the US, and you pay more for a lifetime license, which is more similar to what the NZ retail price was taking into account inflation, at https://www.tivo.com/shop/buy-bolt . You can chose a monthly plan, a yearly plan, or an 'all-in service plan' which appears to be the lifetime service plan', which is an extra$ 550 US, which supposedly lasts for the life of the box, and not the person.

That EPG data is not cheap. 15US a month, I don't think many people would be happy if Tivo said they would supply it but it would cost you $30 - $40NZ a month (after taking in GST, markup that NZ always gets hit with etc).

It is a substantially more advanced box with 4k, 6 tuners, and online options though. Although it seems to be more like sky, where the box itself is cheaper, but you also pay a monthly sub. But it also gives you the option to buy outright. The box + lifetime license is more similar to what the NZ price was at launch, when you take into account inflation. NZ / US excahnge rates have also changed a lot since then, as the US dollar used to be a lot weaker, so that would make it more expensive in 2017. In NZ we didn't have an option of monthly or annual plans, which could be why the box had such a large initial cost, and there was poor uptake. Kiwis probably couldn't afford to outlay $900 on a PVR. Maybe they should have used this monthly billing model, although I don't think many people would want to pay a monthly fee just for freeview, and some poor streaming content. I think telecom/spark did later move to a monthly model, so you paid it off over 24 months, but that also can't have been too popular.

sbiddle

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#1744549 20-Mar-2017 14:54

I see a lot of irony that in Australia Harvey Norman are offering a tradein deal on the Fetch TV - a device that also has a downloadable EPG rather than using an OTA EPG.

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mattwnz

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#1744558 20-Mar-2017 15:01

sbiddle:

I see a lot of irony that in Australia Harvey Norman are offering a tradein deal on the Fetch TV - a device that also has a downloadable EPG rather than using an OTA EPG.

Is that the same box that Tivo Australia were giving tivo customers a $100 voucher for? It is certainly a big lesson for NZers to avoid systems that reply on proprietary services like EPGs, if they want to avoid being left out in the cold in the future. IMO stick to Freeview itself, although I do wonder how long the current EPG format/ freeview interface will be supported for, as the interface itself is laggy and dated, and the format of the EPg isn't as good as tivos.

sbiddle

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#1744571 20-Mar-2017 15:35

mattwnz:

sbiddle:

I see a lot of irony that in Australia Harvey Norman are offering a tradein deal on the Fetch TV - a device that also has a downloadable EPG rather than using an OTA EPG.

Is that the same box that Tivo Australia were giving tivo customers a $100 voucher for? It is certainly a big lesson for NZers to avoid systems that reply on proprietary services like EPGs, if they want to avoid being left out in the cold in the future. IMO stick to Freeview itself, although I do wonder how long the current EPG format/ freeview interface will be supported for, as the interface itself is laggy and dated, and the format of the EPg isn't as good as tivos.

There was initial talk of it being Tivo offering the deal, but this just seems to be Harvey Norman and Fetch TV joining together to attract Tivo users.

Jaxson

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#1744575 20-Mar-2017 15:41

tdgeek:

Jaxson:

Anyone who purchases within 5 years before October 31st 2017 may have a comeback option under the CGA route, but I doubt for anyone else. Price doesn't really come into this. It worked for a reasonable time for most customers.

I expect the shut off date has been set to remove that.

I fully agree.

It would be interesting to see exactly when the license was granted, because it seems almost convenient that it's ending 5 years after the last of the units were sold.

I get the feeling that they've paid for the license to end on that date precisely because of the 5 year period.

Where did people buy them from more recently than 5 years ago?

I got mine on total run out from Bond and Bond, and there weren't many left by that stage.

Jaxson

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#1744597 20-Mar-2017 15:54

sbiddle:

Jaxson:

Re the EPG service, does anyone know where TIVO were saucing this from? The standard EPG released is 7 days, but assume this is filled with data looking further out in advance anyway though.

Did TiVo/other party do a deal on the side with channels directly to provide this data, or was it pulled from a standard location. Sony PlayTV was (still is?) doing a similar.

As EPG data was (and still is) regarded as intellectual property by NZ networks Tivo entered into agreements to provide EPG data which they then mangle and provide from their own server. A lack of agreement with Prime and Maori TV meant there was no EPG data for these channels for a couple of years after the launch of Tivo.

Yeah that was my recollection on this also. Point being there may be more agreements to be negotiated over and above just renewing the TiVo service license.

It's proven that the system can work, but moving forward some company would probably need to approach TiVo and see if they could buy the newly released rights to TiVo in NZ, and then start pushing out their own service and hardware.
Given the monumental flop of the first NZ TiVo release, and the general move to on demand services over PVRs (looks like no new Sony or Samsung PVR's exist any more, and most new freeview TV's have freeview plus on board etc), I can't see that being a smart move by anyone.

Shops have a pretty good stance of saying that they have supported their models with a refund if they've failed in the last five years. I can't see cause for any claim against them. They weren't to know that the guide would not be provided from October 2017 when these were sold in 2012, as no one knew then. The only one who may have would be Hybrid, and they don't seem to exist anymore, and aren't NZ based. TiVo certainly aren't NZ based. There's actually no one left to chase and lodge a claim with. Stores can easily say they've done all they can, sold it in good faith at the time and would have stood by the product with a refund if it had failed within the last 5 years.

mattwnz

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#1744617 20-Mar-2017 16:16

Jaxson:

Shops have a pretty good stance of saying that they have supported their models with a refund if they've failed in the last five years. I can't see cause for any claim against them. They weren't to know that the guide would not be provided from October 2017 when these were sold in 2012, as no one knew then. The only one who may have would be Hybrid, and they don't seem to exist anymore, and aren't NZ based. TiVo certainly aren't NZ based. There's actually no one left to chase and lodge a claim with. Stores can easily say they've done all they can, sold it in good faith at the time and would have stood by the product with a refund if it had failed within the last 5 years.

Although isn't that why the CGA says you can either contact the retailer OR the manufacture when making a claim under the CGA, to protect the consumer against either one of the parties going out of business? Who is actually the manufacturer in this case, is it Hybrid Australia? I agree that potentially it is tough on the retailer in this type of situation, and it must happen a bit when manufacturers disappear.

Apart from the tivo, and mysky, the odd PVR, and before that VCRs no other product appears to have had widespread use in NZ, for recording live TV. So I can't see a new product coming in unless it is also going to offer all the streaming options. I can see that the new tivos offer that, but NZ is such a small market, and our consumer laws are quite strict, which could explain why the Fetch box isn't in NZ.

old3eyes

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#1744651 20-Mar-2017 17:28

As Panasonic license the TiVo software from TiVo US for their branded DVRs it's a pity that they don't bring out a new DVR with the software or is it licensed for one region only??

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Old3eyes

mattwnz

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#1744654 20-Mar-2017 17:35

old3eyes:

As Panasonic license the TiVo software from TiVo US for their branded DVRs it's a pity that they don't bring out a new DVR with the software or is it licensed for one region only??

What are Panasonics current models in NZ like? My impression of older models were they were quite clunky. You would think the a retailer may start doing a deal on them, although that may not happen until after the closedown date. BUt there will likely be a low amount of stock when that happens.

minimoke

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#1744686 20-Mar-2017 18:03

Jaxson:

I fully agree.

It would be interesting to see exactly when the license was granted, because it seems almost convenient that it's ending 5 years after the last of the units were sold.

I get the feeling that they've paid for the license to end on that date precisely because of the 5 year period.

Where did people buy them from more recently than 5 years ago?

I got mine on total run out from Bond and Bond, and there weren't many left by that stage.

The "five "years isnt a magical CGA five years. Under the CGA it is a timeframe that a reasonable consumer fully acquainted with the state and condition of the goods, including any hidden defects, would regard as acceptable. Could be four years, could be six. Could be 10! Of,course, I think I am a reasonable consumer.

Depends on the circumstances/product behind the CGA claim. Clearly there is a hidden defect - that is the cessation of the licence which consumers weren't aware of. Given Telecom and Spark were hand-in-hand at the Tivo Launch I suspect Telecom did know about it. And consumers wernt fully acquainted at all with the licencing arrangements at the time of the supply - other than being led to believe it was a life time one as confirmed by the System Information screen posted above.

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