Vector Solar panel trial

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#913491 11-Oct-2013 10:13

Is there going to be any progress towards a truly smart network where you do intelligent load shedding via the control box for the solar? I would be quite ok with things like the pool pump being turned off in periods of high demand if it resulted in some form of saving and there was the smarts to ensure that it gets the total required runtime daily. Same for fridge etc.

Richard rich.ms

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#913767 11-Oct-2013 17:29

richms: Is there going to be any progress towards a truly smart network where you do intelligent load shedding via the control box for the solar? I would be quite ok with things like the pool pump being turned off in periods of high demand if it resulted in some form of saving and there was the smarts to ensure that it gets the total required runtime daily. Same for fridge etc.

We believe that the our solution is pretty smart! it is the first systems available in the world that integrates solar and storage at the residential level "out of the box". The ability to time shift renewable energy is an important step in this part of the market.

The term smart network is a catch all phrase that has different meanings depending on what segment of the industry you operate in. However, on the residential side, there are several aspects that we are currently evaluating that could lead to further developments including load management. The solar solution and cabinet are at the very least an integration hub that future developments could be hung off of. For obvious reasons, we are not in a position to disclose any ideas under development.

And the current solar programme has been keeping the team pretty busy. . .

Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

richms

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#913773 11-Oct-2013 17:44

I would probably be able to fit the 3kw system on the shed. Is there the option of paying more and sticking another 2kw of panels somewhere else and wiring it back to the same box at a later stage?

Otherwise is there an instalation option that will put a frame or something on the south side of an A frame type roof to let the panels continue past the peak of the existing roofline?

Richard rich.ms

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#913790 11-Oct-2013 18:09

richms: I would probably be able to fit the 3kw system on the shed. Is there the option of paying more and sticking another 2kw of panels somewhere else and wiring it back to the same box at a later stage?

Otherwise is there an installation option that will put a frame or something on the south side of an A frame type roof to let the panels continue past the peak of the existing roofline?

Question 1: we do have a 5kW option that you could use for your first option. This depends highly on specifics. Suggest you contact us directly to discuss. In short, you can easily split the arrays, orientation doesn't matter, but cable distance does. If it less than 20M cable run it should be very straightforward. Beyond that we will need to get out the calculator and do some math on losses and cable sizing.

Question 2: No. Frames are difficult, ugly and expensive. Would require certification. And we don't install on the south side of roofs given performance losses are so high.

Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

Niel

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#914241 12-Oct-2013 22:09

VectorSolar:
Niel: VectorSolar, which variant of Li-ion chemistry battery does it use?

Good question

The battery cells that we are currently using are Lithium Ion Polymer composed of
Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) Lithium Ion

Similar to other batteries used in electric vehicle batteries. NMC are generally regarded as having these features compared to other LI-ION:
- Medium density
- Increased affordability over Cobalt
- Longer battery life (>5000 cycles at 80%)
- much safer and more stable

Further reading:
Battery University Comparison

Thanks, Battery University is my favourite battery information web site and have been using it for years.

I am new to NMC, however I am very familiar with LiFePO4 (LFP) which I believe has significantly greater advantages for long life products. The negative that its terminal voltage is lower is also its advantage, because the cell is never above the ionic potential where lithium metal plating can occur (and you know what happens when lithium metal meets oxygen). I suspect the other safety feature of LFP, the crystal structure is similar in the charged and discharged state, is shared with NMC as that avoids a lot of stress on the cell and gives it much higher cycle life. A down side of NMC is the environmental impact of processing nickel and cobalt, here LFP is a clear winning. However, LFP will likely not be pursued because the raw material to make LFP is found in China and not much in Western countries.

So why not use LFP for a large battery pack that needs to be installed in my garage (house) and be safe/reliable for 20 years?

You can never have enough Volvos!

Ouranos

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#914332 13-Oct-2013 15:04

VectorSolar: Great to see a healthy discussion in these forums.

Some points of clarification where they may be useful:

1) MBIE references the average price of residential electricity in Auckland at .27 per kWh based on their market basket survey
2) The average electricity price inflation since 1996 has been 5.8% according to MBIE statistics.
3) Solar panels installed by Vector are warranted from the manufacturer at linear degradation of 20% over a 25 year period or .8% per year
4) Payments for energy fed back into the grid range depending on your electricity retail company with a range from .05 - .25 per kWh and an average of .17 kWh.

I'd be interested in your comments on the economics of Vector Solar from a consumer's perspective.

I have built a simple cost-benefit model to see if an installation would be economic. The file is available at: http://www.i-nth.com/images/files/VectorSolarCost-benefitV1-0.xlsx

While it is possible to select assumptions that make the installation have a positive NPV, realistic assumptions typically produce a negative NPV. For example, the assumptions that the file is saved with have an NPV of negative $2400. Hardly a great investment.

Note that your comment above about the average Auckland residential price being 27 c/kWh is misleading. That price includes the daily fixed charge being expressed as a variable rate over an assumed 8000 kWh pa consumption. MBIE use this calculation methodology to track costs over time. In reality, the consumer will still have to pay the fixed daily charge while the solar system is installed. The saving from the solar system is only the variable price, which is much less than the 27 c/kWh mentioned. In my assumptions I've used the most common residential pricing plan in Auckland: Mercury Energy's "Everyday Energy" plan with standard usage.

I've also used the "buy back" price that Mercury pay for excess energy injected into the network: a very modest 3.5 c/kWh. Given that the solar system will typically generate the most during a summer day - which is typically the lowest consumption time - it is likely that some energy will receive this buy back price. Exactly what proportion of energy gets the buy back price, versus how much effectively saves the full retail consumption price, depends on the consumer's energy consumption profile. Of course, this is aided by the battery pack, which smooths out variations to some extent. As an estimate, I've assumed that 25% of the energy gets the buy back price.

Comments/corrections welcome.

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insane

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#914335 13-Oct-2013 15:36

I think you're pretty much smack on the money. I expressed my doubts on the first page and I'll quote myself again as I believe it's become relevant after the maths has been done

insane: I just signed up now, but not sure how much savings I'll see as I have gas for heating, cooking and hot water.

Elect bill is normally around $120, so if it costs $70 per month it might not be worth it given how much of my power bill consists of the base fee, no usage.

Given I get additional savings from using Gas I most certainly will not be taking this further. To be fair to Vector at no point have they ever suggested it's going to be cheaper or a good investment, so they will be fully aware of the costs or they would be advertising that fact from the onset.

timbosan

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#915939 16-Oct-2013 11:19

I have spoken to Vector about this as part of the assessment (which I passed) and I am in the process of scheduling a site visit, but then had a longer think about it. I took the Spreadsheet from 'Ouranos' and loaded in the data for me:

5kWh system
buy back of 19.8c
Retail price of 25.161c
prompt payment 22%
(Also I think the sheet is wrong as the kWh for a 3KW system are 4380, not 4000?)

This all gave me a NPV of 2832, making it a good investment.

However questions still remain:

What happens after the 12.5 year service agreement to the pricing? Will we be hit with the result of 12.5 years of inflation? (a bit like land lease renewals)
What happens after the 12.5 year service agreement to the equipment (the Vector site notes that it owns it for the 'life of the agreement', does that mean I own it after)?
If the batteries only last 15 years, what happens then? From my research in the past solar batteries are the most expensive component of a system.
Can I get detailed usage data from the meter and/or cabinet? (I know the first part of that question is probably Retailer related)

wongtop

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#915951 16-Oct-2013 11:29

VectorSolar:
richms: Is there going to be any progress towards a truly smart network where you do intelligent load shedding via the control box for the solar? I would be quite ok with things like the pool pump being turned off in periods of high demand if it resulted in some form of saving and there was the smarts to ensure that it gets the total required runtime daily. Same for fridge etc.

We believe that the our solution is pretty smart! it is the first systems available in the world that integrates solar and storage at the residential level "out of the box". The ability to time shift renewable energy is an important step in this part of the market.

One question is the storage system smart enough to try and match the house's load so that it minimises the import of electricity from the rest of the system, or is the storage controlled by Vector so that the storage is used to manage system peaks (like hot water ripple control)?

Dav4122

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#916017 16-Oct-2013 13:42

timbosan: I have spoken to Vector about this as part of the assessment (which I passed) and I am in the process of scheduling a site visit, but then had a longer think about it. I took the Spreadsheet from 'Ouranos' and loaded in the data for me:

5kWh system
buy back of 19.8c
Retail price of 25.161c
prompt payment 22%
(Also I think the sheet is wrong as the kWh for a 3KW system are 4380, not 4000?)

This all gave me a NPV of 2832, making it a good investment.

However questions still remain:

What happens after the 12.5 year service agreement to the pricing? Will we be hit with the result of 12.5 years of inflation? (a bit like land lease renewals)
What happens after the 12.5 year service agreement to the equipment (the Vector site notes that it owns it for the 'life of the agreement', does that mean I own it after)?
If the batteries only last 15 years, what happens then? From my research in the past solar batteries are the most expensive component of a system.
Can I get detailed usage data from the meter and/or cabinet? (I know the first part of that question is probably Retailer related)

I would think for 2 and 3 that the equipment would be obsolete after 12.5 years and we would be upgrading or removing it? ... but thats just my guess

for question 4 I have heard there is an app/website of some sort giving the data coming from the cabinets

nickb800

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#916031 16-Oct-2013 14:17

Dav4122:
timbosan: I have spoken to Vector about this as part of the assessment (which I passed) and I am in the process of scheduling a site visit, but then had a longer think about it. I took the Spreadsheet from 'Ouranos' and loaded in the data for me:

5kWh system
buy back of 19.8c
Retail price of 25.161c
prompt payment 22%
(Also I think the sheet is wrong as the kWh for a 3KW system are 4380, not 4000?)

This all gave me a NPV of 2832, making it a good investment.

However questions still remain:

What happens after the 12.5 year service agreement to the pricing? Will we be hit with the result of 12.5 years of inflation? (a bit like land lease renewals)
What happens after the 12.5 year service agreement to the equipment (the Vector site notes that it owns it for the 'life of the agreement', does that mean I own it after)?
If the batteries only last 15 years, what happens then? From my research in the past solar batteries are the most expensive component of a system.
Can I get detailed usage data from the meter and/or cabinet? (I know the first part of that question is probably Retailer related)

I would think for 2 and 3 that the equipment would be obsolete after 12.5 years and we would be upgrading or removing it? ... but thats just my guess

for question 4 I have heard there is an app/website of some sort giving the data coming from the cabinets

Solar panels are good for 25 years plus (usually warrantied as such). Battery will probably be kaput though

Lenovo

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timbosan

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#916134 16-Oct-2013 15:30

for question 4 I have heard there is an app/website of some sort giving the data coming from the cabinets

I found that after I asked the question - http://www.vector.co.nz/solar-faq/how-can-i-see-what-sungenie-doing

Anybody seen this or has screenshots?

Anybody tried to see if it has a database behind it we can query?

berend

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#926211 2-Nov-2013 11:53

I've done some calculations too, and this does seem to be a bad deal.

My variable electricity price is 18.01 cents per kWh.

I would go for a 5kWp unit, which apparently gives me a max 25kWh per day, under best circumstances.

25kWh per day times 18.01 cents = $4.5025 per day, or $ 135.08 per month.

It would cost me $115 per month, so a savings of just $20 per month.

But if I factor in the $3,000 setup fee for a 5kWp system over 12.5 years, that's an extra $20 per month.

So under the ideal sun weather, the unit gives me no savings!

And under worst circumstances I would lose $65 per month. This looks like a very bad deal.

Please let me know your comments on my back of the envelope calculation.

Niel

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#926452 3-Nov-2013 07:44

Agree. Rather go wind power in combination with solar, so you benefit from one inverter for 2 systems and it works in the dark (when there is wind...).

You can never have enough Volvos!

Dav4122

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#930270 10-Nov-2013 15:22

Some photos of the cabinet going in for those of you wondering about size/contents

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