5,500 word "Terms of Trade", in 5 point Arial narrow font

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kingdragonfly

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# 216623 5-Jul-2017 13:13

I'm looking for on some residential electrical work in Wellington.

I had two non-load bearing interior walls built. The wiring is installed, hanging out of holes, but not connected on either end. Access is good, as all wires run from the ground floor into the basement.

I emailed "Ross Monk" to see their availability.

The first reply was a short call demanding to sign some forms, before even looking at the job. I'd guess it wasn't Ross Monk, but some third party paid service

What I got was a 5,500 word "Term of Trade", in 5 point Arial narrow font (and a work authorization form).

Even using Microsoft Word at 200%, the Term of Trades is barely readable.

When I reformatted to 11 points, it was 13 pages long.

Three companies are mentioned in the signature: Key Electrical, CEDS, Ross Monk. The document itself appears to originate from a fourth company Electrotech, which I guess is the accounting firm (???).

It's copyrighted by "EC Credit Control 1999", which is a debt collection company.

I googled "EC Credit Control", and found this thread

http://www.reverseaustralia.com/lookup/0287053008/

Had a number of calls from EC Credit Control sales rep trying to meet with me in Melbourne. They dont stop calling, then start using threatening tones when I tell them I am not interested.

Did some research on EC CREDIT control, a NZ based company, seems they are trying to sell Term of Trade document in Aust for thousands of dollars, this is a scam as they are not a legal firm and are selling a generic document.

EC Credit Control have been in trouble with ACCC, ASIC and their Sales Director has a criminal history in NZ with a previous NZ colection company.

Go to a Lawyer for legal advice stay clear of this high pressure sales business!!

They wish me to pay one of their clients, Premier Publishing for pathetic service I have naturally refused to pay a extornate amount for 2 bad photos. It seems having read EC credit terms of trade used by Premier Publishing I have no right of refusal. Might let the court decide hopefully they are a higher power than the self proclaiming EC Credit Control and their minion Premier Publishing. Keep a sharp eye out for these guys.

Needless to say I emailed "I'll use someone else"

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Vocus

# 1813194 5-Jul-2017 13:44

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Hope you told them why. They may not be aware.

kingdragonfly

3352 posts

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# 1813242 5-Jul-2017 14:33

I told them I didn't like signing a very long "Terms of Trade" contract with tiny print.

They responded they understood, but it was a standard contract.

I found out about EC Credit Control later.

Since you rightfully brought it up, I'll email them the link in case they don't know.

MikeAqua

5390 posts

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# 1813245 5-Jul-2017 14:40

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I'd reject that outright and tell them why.

If someone need to cover their backside with that much paper, it suggest to me they don't have trust in the professional skills of their employees.

Every time I review an agreement like that big chunks of it are illegal and/or contrary to legislation and/or contrary to common law. I suspect a lot of the text is imported from agreements used in other countries.

Mike

plod

265 posts

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# 1813263 5-Jul-2017 15:10

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Electotech now owns Ross monk electrical. Ross monk before being sold did a majority if there work in the printing industry in Wellington. Pret

scuwp

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# 1813266 5-Jul-2017 15:25

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And from the contractor perspective they struggle with customers wasting their time, wanting work done for free/cheap/cash, changing agreements, and haggling over work completed. I think it's only reasonable they have the right to cover themselves from customers who might take advantage. The terms of trade however should be able to be quickly and easily read and understood...but then what would the lawyers do?

Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman

SATTV

896 posts

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# 1813375 5-Jul-2017 18:06

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Without you sighting and signing the terms of trade before setting foot on the job they can not take you to the debt collectors and charge you the fees.

The ToT does sound a bit long but I would suspect they have been burned by one or two too many people and just covering their backsides.

I have worked for a company that we used to carry TOT printed out and we had to get customers to sign them before we started the job, often they were emailed to customers first and it was marked in our job portal if they were signed or not. If not we had to get them signed.

If the customer refused to sign we had to just walk away.

It is no big deal IMO

John

I know enough to be dangerous

Journeyman

641 posts

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# 1813517 6-Jul-2017 00:55

kingdragonfly:

What I got was a 5,500 word "Term of Trade", in 5 point Arial narrow font (and a work authorization form).
...
Needless to say I emailed "I'll use someone else"

You could also have emailed back four letters.... G T F O.

Paul1977

2835 posts

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# 1813562 6-Jul-2017 09:21

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Wouldn't a contractor normally only ask you to sign ToT as part of accepting their quote?

The OP says they were asking him to sign before they had even looked at the job, this sounds unusual to me.

Inphinity

2544 posts

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# 1813577 6-Jul-2017 09:50

Paul1977:

Wouldn't a contractor normally only ask you to sign ToT as part of accepting their quote?

The OP says they were asking him to sign before they had even looked at the job, this sounds unusual to me.

I agree. I would expect a copy of the terms of trade upon signing / commencing work, not for requesting a quote / estimate / information around ability to undertake the work.

BDAKiwi

41 posts

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# 1819136 10-Jul-2017 19:54

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This is very disappointing to read. While 5,500 words (is that actually correct?) for a domestic customer does seem a bit over the top, it's a necessary document to protect you and the company doing the work for you. It's standard practice in many companies to get the paperwork out of the way before starting work.

Ross Monk Electrical, Key Electrical, and Computer Electrical and Data are all divisions of Electrotech 2011 Ltd, and are all well respected in the electrical industry.

EC Credit Control is a company that tens of thousands of businesses use to recover bad debts. These businesses are EC Credit's clients. That's all. One of the services EC offers is designing legal documents to protect the business from bad debt, but usually also to protect the customer from bad contractors, they are usually 2-way documents, which is part of the reason they are so long. Companies like EC credit are necessary because too many customers fail to pay, so companies need a binding legal document to protect them from that. As long as both sides are fair, that document never needs to come out of the filing cabinet. The only reason these documents exist is because of the volume of people who try to get out of paying for a fair job. So the ToT is designed and copyrighted by EC Credit as a service to businesses, there is no other connection.

I was self employed for more than a decade and domestic jobs produce the most whiny, whinging I'm-not-gonna-pay customers you'd never hope to see. Many people just don't get it - it costs money to travel to a job. It costs money to hold stock. It costs money to stand there and talk to them about a job they don't understand, they have no idea what's involved, they just want it done 'cheap'.

Commercial and industrial customers however actually have some idea of costs, and as long as they are kept informed, they are great. People who complain about the ToT forms are whinging right out the gate, so who would want them as a customer to begin with?

There are contractors out there with no legal protection, low work ethics, and no idea of the actual costs they are accruing. They eventually fail, and they bring the tone of the entire industry down in the process, with unrealistic job cost expectations being the biggest victim.

Anyway, basically you've slagged a company off because you don't want read a document and couldn't be bothered lining up your ducks before commenting. You don't even know what quality of work they do, as far as you're concerned they're no good and you're prepared to say so in a forum with no justification at all. If you couldn't be bothered with the legal bizzo, just find someone else who doesn't care about themselves or their customers.

Disclaimer (MF): the poster is associated in one form or another with Ross Monk Electrical.

[Mod edit (MF): Removed a couple of sentences. Added disclaimer]

freitasm

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# 1819238 10-Jul-2017 22:20

I have removed a couple of posts.

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BDAKiwi

41 posts

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# 1819259 10-Jul-2017 23:27

MikeAqua:

I'd reject that outright and tell them why.

If someone need to cover their backside with that much paper, it suggest to me they don't have trust in the professional skills of their employees.

Every time I review an agreement like that big chunks of it are illegal and/or contrary to legislation and/or contrary to common law. I suspect a lot of the text is imported from agreements used in other countries.

Oh come on, without seeing it you're implying it's an illegal document?
Maybe the company is sick of customers who try to dodge payment. I was once self employed and struck a few - nothing wrong with the work, they just didn't want to pay for it and hoped I'd go away if they ignored me for long enough. A well written ToT (and they have to be long to cover all the legal I's and T's) means the company can recover both the debt and associated costs. The thing with most single paragraph ToTs is that recovery costs are not properly specified, so if it'll cost more to recover than the debt is worth, and a dodgy customer knows it...

BDAKiwi

41 posts

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# 1822609 14-Jul-2017 17:43

Further to the posts above, I work for Electrotech 2011 Ltd, I joined the company late 2002 when it was Ross Monk Electrical. Ross has since retired, but the new owners are always trying very hard to do the right thing by their customers and employees. In hindsight, not mentioning this to begin with was a mistake I won't repeat. Thank you Mauricio for being so damn nice about it.

Regardless, I did my best to keep my response isolated from my association with the company, I would have got on my soapbox anyway. I have a habit of barging uninvited into all sorts of discussions where I have no prior association, having a go at meritless, illogical or just plain idiotic statements. I've had people accuse me of working for this company or that, of being married to / the gay lover of an individual I'm arguing for, but it's never been the case before, I just don't like sweeping and unfair generalisations, and I will argue with someone I don't know about a subject that I may not even be particularly interested in, hoping they'll start thinking more broadly.

Virgil

Dangerous Chocolate
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# 1822622 14-Jul-2017 18:11

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I guess the point of the OP still stands, you and your company are entitled to ask potential customers to sign a humongous document, and all potential customers have the right to tell you to "Go Away", and to use someone else. I myself will not be using any of these companies even if they are "well respected in the industry", and not because I don't intend to pay.

plod

265 posts

Ultimate Geek

# 1822674 14-Jul-2017 20:33

One person supports this post

BDAKiwi:
Further to the posts above, I work for Electrotech 2011 Ltd, I joined the company late 2002 when it was Ross Monk Electrical. Ross has since retired, but the new owners are always trying very hard to do the right thing by their customers and employees. In hindsight, not mentioning this to begin with was a mistake I won't repeat. Thank you Mauricio for being so damn nice about it.

Regardless, I did my best to keep my response isolated from my association with the company, I would have got on my soapbox anyway. I have a habit of barging uninvited into all sorts of discussions where I have no prior association, having a go at meritless, illogical or just plain idiotic statements. I've had people accuse me of working for this company or that, of being married to / the gay lover of an individual I'm arguing for, but it's never been the case before, I just don't like sweeping and unfair generalisations, and I will argue with someone I don't know about a subject that I may not even be particularly interested in, hoping they'll start thinking more broadly.

I've had dealings with Ross Monk electrical for over 20 years with various companies. Always had top Service I must say

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