Looking at new electricity plan

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Looking at new electricity plan

David321

507 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 105

#247767 22-Feb-2019 08:00

Hi all,

I am currently on contact enerygy's plan with power costing something around 25-27 cents per unit and almost 80 cents for the daily charge. I dont think that would be the best plan for my house hold as its what contact sliped me onto when my fuel rewards plan expired.

I was interested in getting set up with day and night power as I like the idea of the water heating at night only to save power, and also over the winter when we use the heat pumps and electric heater at night we could potentially save a bit of money by using these after 9pm (we are in christcuhrch so of peak is between 9pm and 7am).

I shoped around and was keen on flick for a while but I did not like their payment options so rulled them out, next I called Energy Online, who told me I would need a new meter installed at a cost of around $100 and similar rates to contact's day night plan, then I called contact to see what they could do.

Contact told me the could set up a day night plan with the meter I currently have (interesting that Energy Online said I would need a new meter) and they gave me the rates which we a fraction more expensive than Energy Online, but Contact's daily charge was a bit cheaper and their main draw card was that they only charge night rates during the whole weekend from 9pm Friday until 7am Monday which was a big bonus over Energy Online.

The peak rate with contact is around 35c per unit (a bit high I know) and their night rate was something around 15c from memory (give or take a cent or two each way). Given these rates and the fact that off peak pricing applies all weekend does this seem like a good deal?

It is just my wife and I living there at the moment and the only time we would be using power during the peak time would be between 4pm and 9pm each weeknight as we both work during the day so I think taking advantage of the off peak price where we can should offset by far the increased peak price (hopefully).

Also, to get my hotwater to heat at night only they told me I would have to get a sparky in to wire a timer to the circit, does this sound right? as Energy Online were telling me a sparky would have to wire the hot water into the "night only portion" of the new meter they would provide. Idealy I would like to have a switch on the board from which I could control if it only heats at night or if it heats any time. But then again perhaps with a digital timer I could have an advanced setup so that it only heats at night during the week and heats any time during the weekend (which is still of peak rates but ill be using more hot water in weekends).

Sorry about the long post but figure the more info I share the better the advice I may recieve (seen some posts in this forum about power from some people who really seem to know what they are talking about).

Thanks!

_David_

timmmay

20858 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5350

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2185171 22-Feb-2019 08:07

I'm not sure a day / night plan would make that much difference. Yes you can heat your home at say 5am - 7am, but you still need heating to keep the temperature up. If you turn the heating off during the day then you will need more peak time power. We've found keeping the heat on low during the day means the house feels warmer all the time, and doesn't cost much more in a well insulated house. Given you're home all day on the weekend maybe it helps.

Have you considered Electric Kiwi? You get one free hour of power a day. In that hour we partially heat hot water, run heating (6am) or cooling (9pm), clothes drier, dishwasher, etc. That saves me about 15 - 25% of my daily power on average. You can use my referral link here for a $50 credit (I get the same). I can't check EK rates for you, you need an address with an existing smart meter to even see their prices, which isn't really very user friendly.

I had a timer installed for my hot water, it cost $250 for the timer and electrician.

David321

507 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 105

#2185174 22-Feb-2019 08:23

timmmay:

I'm not sure a day / night plan would make that much difference. Yes you can heat your home at say 5am - 7am, but you still need heating to keep the temperature up. If you turn the heating off during the day then you will need more peak time power. We've found keeping the heat on low during the day means the house feels warmer all the time, and doesn't cost much more in a well insulated house. Given you're home all day on the weekend maybe it helps.

Have you considered Electric Kiwi? You get one free hour of power a day. In that hour we partially heat hot water, run heating (6am) or cooling (9pm), clothes drier, dishwasher, etc. That saves me about 15 - 25% of my daily power on average. You can use my referral link here for a $50 credit (I get the same). I can't check EK rates for you, you need an address with an existing smart meter to even see their prices, which isn't really very user friendly.

I had a timer installed for my hot water, it cost $250 for the timer and electrician.

Thanks for your reply, I am not to worried about keeping the house warm during the day as there is nobody there for 10 hours each week day and we only heat the living room and bedroom at night, so the heaters will be running off peak about 80-90% of the time (my guess).

I am not sure what you mean by "If you turn the heating off during the day then you will need more peak time power" sorry, we are only heating a very small area so our heaters would not work to hard to get these back to a warm temp in the winter. My house has unsulated walls and single glazzed windows also, meaning heating during the day would also be wasteful.

I had not considered Electric kiwi actually, what are the rates for peak and off peak, or day and night (whatever they call it)? I am on Neill Street in Hornby if that helps?
The free house of power is based on average usuage and is only between 9pm and 7am so is not that tempting for me, espicially when I weigh it up against Contact offering off peak rates all weekend.

_David_

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2185182 22-Feb-2019 08:47

David321:

timmmay:

I'm not sure a day / night plan would make that much difference. Yes you can heat your home at say 5am - 7am, but you still need heating to keep the temperature up. If you turn the heating off during the day then you will need more peak time power. We've found keeping the heat on low during the day means the house feels warmer all the time, and doesn't cost much more in a well insulated house. Given you're home all day on the weekend maybe it helps.

Have you considered Electric Kiwi? You get one free hour of power a day. In that hour we partially heat hot water, run heating (6am) or cooling (9pm), clothes drier, dishwasher, etc. That saves me about 15 - 25% of my daily power on average. You can use my referral link here for a $50 credit (I get the same). I can't check EK rates for you, you need an address with an existing smart meter to even see their prices, which isn't really very user friendly.

I had a timer installed for my hot water, it cost $250 for the timer and electrician.

Thanks for your reply, I am not to worried about keeping the house warm during the day as there is nobody there for 10 hours each week day and we only heat the living room and bedroom at night, so the heaters will be running off peak about 80-90% of the time (my guess).

I am not sure what you mean by "If you turn the heating off during the day then you will need more peak time power" sorry, we are only heating a very small area so our heaters would not work to hard to get these back to a warm temp in the winter. My house has unsulated walls and single glazzed windows also, meaning heating during the day would also be wasteful.

I had not considered Electric kiwi actually, what are the rates for peak and off peak, or day and night (whatever they call it)? I am on Neill Street in Hornby if that helps?
The free house of power is based on average usuage and is only between 9pm and 7am so is not that tempting for me, espicially when I weigh it up against Contact offering off peak rates all weekend.

I'm in Aidanfield, on EK. Rates are 27c and 37c per day Low User

My January hour of power is 23%, annual average 15% , max 42%. Timeshifting as advised by Timmmay works , think of it as a 15% discount

I also get 10% discount, by paying with CC, $200 in advance, they credit $220

So, 27c per day, deduct about 15%+ for free hour, deduct 10% for CC payment, thats 27c less at least a 25% discount

EDIT All Incl GST

Spyware

3818 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1366

Lifetime subscriber

#2185186 22-Feb-2019 08:52

@David321

You're confusing the use of a second nightrate meter (can only be connected to hot water + nightstore heater) which is ripple controlled by Orion and use of a single meter with a day/night rate. With the nightstore setup the primary meter can only have a 24 hour rate on it. You can have a switch to switch HWC over to primary 24 hour rate circuit if required. Meridian night rate meter charge (not low user) would be around 0.11/kWh and 0.21/kWh on primary 24 hr meter. This is what I pay with 12% discount applied and incl. GST.

nickb800

2735 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 829

Trusted

#2185202 22-Feb-2019 09:20

There's generally two different approaches to have your hot water on night rate so perhaps that's where the difference between power companies has come in

1) Controlled - you have a ripple receiver with your meter, this sends power down a dedicated cable to your hot water cylinder. Your lines company controls the ripple receiver so that it's only powered overnight, and usage of your hot water cylinder is recorded on a separate meter (or separate virtual meter within your smart meter). You may not be allowed to have a switch which bypasses this. You might be able have it configured as 'night plus' or 'night boost' which as well as 8 hours overnight, gives you 4 hours in the afternoon, for a similar cheap rate. This may be enough for your weekend hot water demand.

2) Uncontrolled - everything in the house is uncontrolled and picked up in one smart meter which records usage in the day and night time separately. If you want to take advantage of night rate, you will need to have a timer installed

Generally power is going to be cheaper on a night controlled rate than the night component of day/night. Unless you have a lot of night demand (other than hot water), you will probably find controlled night (or night plus/boost) for your hot water and an anytime rate for everything else to be better value, rather than uncontrolled day/night

timmmay

20858 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5350

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2185205 22-Feb-2019 09:23

David321:

Thanks for your reply, I am not to worried about keeping the house warm during the day as there is nobody there for 10 hours each week day and we only heat the living room and bedroom at night, so the heaters will be running off peak about 80-90% of the time (my guess).

I am not sure what you mean by "If you turn the heating off during the day then you will need more peak time power" sorry, we are only heating a very small area so our heaters would not work to hard to get these back to a warm temp in the winter. My house has unsulated walls and single glazzed windows also, meaning heating during the day would also be wasteful.

I had not considered Electric kiwi actually, what are the rates for peak and off peak, or day and night (whatever they call it)? I am on Neill Street in Hornby if that helps?
The free house of power is based on average usuage and is only between 9pm and 7am so is not that tempting for me, espicially when I weigh it up against Contact offering off peak rates all weekend.

Given off-peak power starts at 9pm, and you likely get home around 5-6pm, you'll have to heat the house from cold during peak time. This is why brownouts / blackouts tend to happen around that time.

If you heat the house to say 22 degrees, at 5-7am, then leave the heating on 18 degrees all day, it will work less hard to reach 22 in the evening. With single glazed windows and wall insulation you will lose some heat, but you can keep curtains closed (if your wife lets you), and wall insulation didn't make all that much difference for us.

Free hour is whatever power you use in that hour is free, no average. So schedule everything power intensive in that hour and don't pay for it at all. This is why our free hour is something like 5-6am winter (heat the house and hot water), in summer it's 9pm (strong air conditioning before we go to bed). One hour isn't enough time to heat hot water, at least not when you have a toddler who has a bath each day, but for two people who have showers you can probably heat most of your hot water in that time. You need a timer though. I have it start heating hot water in free hour, but I let it heat until 100% hot. I also do top up heating during the day, but if you have off peak power you could do all water heating off peak easy.

Geekzone support

Support Geekzone with one-off or recurring donations Donate via PressPatron.

jonathan18

7415 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2850

ID Verified

Trusted

#2185232 22-Feb-2019 09:48

At the risk of repeating a common topic here on GZ, my understanding is that, in a typical residential house, the more cost-effective method is to heat when required (using a timer to start heating prior to getting up/home), rather than leaving heatpumps going all day in an unoccupied house.

This may be different for a highly efficient, well-insulated house, but in reality what proportion of NZ houses would really meet such criteria?!

That's not to say there may not be other benefits, including a house that's easier to heat and healthier (due to it being drier), but I don't think there's a strong economic rationale for this method.

I'd be happy to see evidence sourced from experts on this contradicting my understanding, but everything I've read or heard that supports the 24/7 approach seems to be by word of mouth rather than directly from those with expertise in the field or from actual studies.

jnimmo

1098 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 255

#2185233 22-Feb-2019 09:49

How old is the house? And assuming you have a smart meter already.. the hot water is probably already on ripple control so all they should need to do to put hot water on night or night boost is change the ripple relay setup (which will involve sending an Orion contractor out).

I've just moved to Energy Club from Meridian which will be saving me about 10% a year, slightly more in summer than in winter interestingly as they have different winter/summer rates (although Meridian have now come back offering $0.2408 per anytime unit)

If you like the look of Energy Club welcome to use my referral link and we both get $50 credit, no contracts.

When in my own place I was a fan of day/night plans but the meter in current place is setup for anytime and it is nice not having to think about what time to use certain appliances. Day/night is good but obviously day rates are much higher so need to be using most energy at night.

David321

507 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 105

#2185234 22-Feb-2019 09:51

Spyware:

@David321

You're confusing the use of a second nightrate meter (can only be connected to hot water + nightstore heater) which is ripple controlled by Orion and use of a single meter with a day/night rate. With the nightstore setup the primary meter can only have a 24 hour rate on it. You can have a switch to switch HWC over to primary 24 hour rate circuit if required. Meridian night rate meter charge (not low user) would be around 0.11/kWh and 0.21/kWh on primary 24 hr meter. This is what I pay with 12% discount applied and incl. GST.

Thanks for clarifying that, it sounds like thats what the power companies were thinking when talking to me, which could also explain why Energy Online were telling me I would need a new meter and Contact were saying the one I have would be fine.

That sounds like a pretty good setup you have, and good rates also, however I guess the only things you get cheap is you hot water as it heats at night. I think ill stick with contacts plan at the moment as I do like the idea of everything the requires power being cheaper to use at night, especially the heat pump running over winter nights and in weekends at home. The day time rate is a little high at around 35c but you have to take the good with the bad I guess.

_David_

timmmay

20858 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5350

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2185247 22-Feb-2019 10:04

jonathan18:

At the risk of repeating a common topic here on GZ, my understanding is that, in a typical residential house, the more cost-effective method is to heat when required (using a timer to start heating prior to getting up/home), rather than leaving heatpumps going all day in an unoccupied house.

This may be different for a highly efficient, well-insulated house, but in reality what proportion of NZ houses would really meet such criteria?!

That's not to say there may not be other benefits, including a house that's easier to heat and healthier (due to it being drier), but I don't think there's a strong economic rationale for this method.

I'd be happy to see evidence sourced from experts on this contradicting my understanding, but everything I've read or heard that supports the 24/7 approach seems to be by word of mouth rather than directly from those with expertise in the field or from actual studies.

Heat loss is proportional to the difference between inside and outside temperatures, so when power prices are constant it will probably always be cheaper to heat only when you need the house warm. When power prices vary or free hours come into play then the calculation would be complex, between power price, heat loss, time occupied, etc.

My old, well insulated, double glazed house does ok with heat on 5am - 10pm in winter, or all night if it's really super cold. It only drops 2-3 degrees overnight, which we make up during a free power hour.

We find the house feels much warmer and more comfortable when heat is on all the time than even if you have it come on a couple of hours before you get home. I assume it heats through better. We discovered this by accident when we had a newborn in the house. We also use a basic ventilation system, non heat recovery, lots in summer and a little in winter. It's on a cheap mains timer.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2185250 22-Feb-2019 10:11

timmmay:

We find the house feels much warmer and more comfortable when heat is on all the time than even if you have it come on a couple of hours before you get home. I assume it heats through better. We discovered this by accident when we had a newborn in the house. We also use a basic ventilation system, non heat recovery, lots in summer and a little in winter. It's on a cheap mains timer.

Agree You have warm air, but if you retain heat during the day, the wall, carpets, floors, furniture all hold ambient heat. A sort of battery. But, if you want to heat a cool house up at night, the low ambient heat is cooling the warm air down, until its all warmed up, then its bed time and its turned off so essentially wasted

When I've had the heatpumps on all day (I work from home) they hardly ever seem to be on. (Its a modern and insulated home)

Geekzone

Want to support Geekzone and browse the site without the ads? Subscribe to Geekzone now (monthly, annual and lifetime options).

timmmay

20858 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5350

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2185294 22-Feb-2019 11:07

tdgeek:

Agree You have warm air, but if you retain heat during the day, the wall, carpets, floors, furniture all hold ambient heat. A sort of battery. But, if you want to heat a cool house up at night, the low ambient heat is cooling the warm air down, until its all warmed up, then its bed time and its turned off so essentially wasted

When I've had the heatpumps on all day (I work from home) they hardly ever seem to be on. (Its a modern and insulated home)

Exactly. The heat goes through the walls, floors, carpets, furniture, etc. That thermal mass helps keep it warm if it cools down, useful during power cuts and overnight.

We find heating the lounge / kitchen to 21 or 22, the bedrooms get up to 19 or 20, which is good.

David321

507 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 105

#2185323 22-Feb-2019 12:13

I guess really it comes down to balancing two options and deciding on one of them.

Option 1, An anytime meter along with a night rate meter, hot water hooked to night only meter for cheap rates, a better peak rate, but no cheap rates for all other power between 9pm and 7am and also all weekend.

Option 2, One smart meter with cheap rates between 9pm and 7am and all weekend, but a high price during peak hours, (in which we are hardly home anyway).

I think for my wife and I (who work most of the day during week days) we would be better off with the one meter and pay more for peak hour power but less between 9pm and 7 am and all weekend, we would have our water heating at night, we could set the washing machine to come on at night, also have the heat pump and oil heater cranked up from 4pm (that means only a few hours at peak price and also only in the middle of winter), also we can do vacuuming in the weekend also. Also, sometimes each side of winter we flick on a little oil heater in the bedroom for over night so this would also be the night rate power it uses.

I think if we were home much more often in the peak times we might ed up better off with a separate night meter for the hot water and have the peak power at a lower price than the day night option, but in reality I am thinking most of the power we use will be during off peak times. Plus the fact that the entire weekend is considered off peak is a big bonus and only available in Christchurch apparently, this is great for us as it is the only time we heat the house during the day as we are at home and not work.

Some great info on here and I have just learnt more this morning reading threw this than I have spending a long time on the phone to the power companies.

If anyone reading this knows another power company which may offer a day night meter configuration plan with rates less than 35c peak and 15c off peak (low user) and about 30c per day please let me know :)

_David_

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1749

#2185929 23-Feb-2019 16:54

jonathan18:
At the risk of repeating a common topic here on GZ, my understanding is that, in a typical residential house, the more cost-effective method is to heat when required (using a timer to start heating prior to getting up/home), rather than leaving heatpumps going all day in an unoccupied house.

This may be different for a highly efficient, well-insulated house, but in reality what proportion of NZ houses would really meet such criteria?!

That's not to say there may not be other benefits, including a house that's easier to heat and healthier (due to it being drier), but I don't think there's a strong economic rationale for this method.

I'd be happy to see evidence sourced from experts on this contradicting my understanding, but everything I've read or heard that supports the 24/7 approach seems to be by word of mouth rather than directly from those with expertise in the field or from actual studies.

Plenty of reasons why 24/7 heating appears better cost wise, or gives secondary benefits.

Heatpumps and most fossil fuel heaters have a COP that varies depending on their heat output as a % of max output. And the outside temp and humidity effect heatpump output as well. There are even heatpumps out there that have heating elements in their indoor units. Or control outputs to switch an external supplementary heater. Which are used for faster heating times, and to help maintain temp if the heatpump is undersized for the load. The initial heat up of a cold room may push the heater into a low COP operation zone or trigger the supplementary heater. That wouldn't otherwise have occurred.

Use the Eco mode on your heatpump. It normally limits compressor speed to around 80% of max. And sometimes changes fan speed for best efficiency (instead of say low noise)

Different power prices or capacity charges causing a cost increase from the initial heat up. Even if the actual energy used is the same.

Poorly designed heating systems. EG a ducted heatpump that has only 1 thermostat, and no zone control or ability to vary heat to different zones. The area with the thermostat quickly reaches temp, the system then reduces output. But the lower output means that other areas are slow to heat. Another common example, is a single heatpump that is trying to heat multiple rooms.

Trying to use a heater as a dehumidifier. When there is a large temp difference between inside and outside. If there is also some air leakage between inside and outside. This will have the effect of dehumidifiing the room.

Fix those air leaks and get an actual dehumidifier.