Power companies that allow analogue readers

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charliebrownnz

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#288647 14-Jul-2021 21:28

Does anyone know of a power company in the BOP that allows us to use the old analogue meters?

As great as the technology is I don't want power companies having the ability to ration my power usage and turning of my heating\cooling. This has become an issue overseas in places where widespread mandates of renewable power clashes with peak power demands and low power generation. This risk increases with the uptake in electric vehicle usage.

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#2744288 14-Jul-2021 21:40

The meters themselves don't have the ability to turn off heating/cooling. You might be referring to the ripple controllers which work independently of whether you have a smart meter or not.
In residential applications, ripple switches typically control the hot water cylinder.

You can opt out of this but expect this to have an impact on the rates you pay.

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k1w1k1d

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#2744295 14-Jul-2021 22:03

Power companies used ripple control to turn hot water cylinders etc off long before "smart" meters were even thought of.

As advised you could opt out and have uncontrolled 24/7 power usage, but at an increased cost per unit.

charliebrownnz

79 posts

Master Geek

#2744299 14-Jul-2021 22:17

Thanks for the response. My understanding is many of the new standards for smart devices will allow smart meters to have some degree of control over them. For instance, turn the thermostat down\up on a heat pump system. I think the standard is AS/NZS 4755:2012.

I can obviously ensure the devices i get are not compliant with such standards but it would be easier to just not have a smart meter.

Oblivian

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#2744301 14-Jul-2021 22:40

Getting a bit ahead of yourself I think.

It's been shown as a concept to encourage bringing it in, but it needs a bit of support and framework yet.

Reads to me it could be good for areas at capacity to allow expansion of infrastructure. But not in play yet

https://www.transpower.co.nz/our-work/demand-response-and-distributed-energy-resources-ders

Scott3

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#2744302 14-Jul-2021 22:40

charliebrownnz:

Thanks for the response. My understanding is many of the new standards for smart devices will allow smart meters to have some degree of control over them. For instance, turn the thermostat down\up on a heat pump system. I think the standard is AS/NZS 4755:2012.

I can obviously ensure the devices i get are not compliant with such standards but it would be easier to just not have a smart meter.

The "smart meters" we get in NZ are actually really dumb.

Basically they are just dumb meters that can be remotely read so the power companies don't have to pay meter readers.

They do also allow provide 1/2 hourly usage data allowing power companies to sell plans with different pricing for on peak / off peak power, or provide pricing that is based on 1/2 hourly wholesale rates like flick energy does.

Proper smart meter's that can send signals to control loads are pretty much just theoretical in NZ at the moment. (hot water load shedding still uses very old tech to do the job).

Even if NZ gets proper smart meters that can communicate with load's, it is highly likely they will only do stuff that would be invisible to the customer. (I.e. delaying your freezers defrost cycle 4 hours if power supply is tight)

xcubed

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#2744303 14-Jul-2021 22:41

You're probably getting mixed up with the news article a few backs about Texas: https://www.wired.com/story/why-utilities-want-to-sometimes-control-your-smart-thermostat/

In that case, there was no smart metering involved, the customers had specifically opted into a programme where the smart thermostats that they bought were subsidised and controlled by their power company. I'm not aware of any power companies in New Zealand doing anything similar.

Even in the case of old-fashioned ripple control on the hot water cylinder (which pretty much everyone has installed even with an analogue meter), the power companies turn it off very infrequently to manage peak loads. They have targets that they need to meet to ensure they don't turn them off too often or for too long. In the case of a hot water cylinder, being off for an hour or two during peak times has very little noticeable impact on any customers, as the cylinders are good at retaining heat.

You can see information about when Orion manages their load at: https://online.oriongroup.co.nz/LoadManagement/default.aspx
Your energy provider may have similar information available on their website.

No one is going to turn down your A/C just because you have a smart meter.

charliebrownnz

79 posts

Master Geek

#2744311 14-Jul-2021 23:21

Ok, let's get back to my question. Are their companies in the bop that will allow me to keep my old analogue meter?

Just ignore my motivation and humor me, I could fear the microwave radiation or believe that a cobination of population growth, electric vehicles, reduction in 24/7 reliable power supply will lead to power rationing of "non-essential" devices in a few years time; or fear that government will compel power companies to release all the data for its own nefarious purposes.

charliebrownnz

79 posts

Master Geek

#2744315 14-Jul-2021 23:47

Scott3:
charliebrownnz:

Thanks for the response. My understanding is many of the new standards for smart devices will allow smart meters to have some degree of control over them. For instance, turn the thermostat down\up on a heat pump system. I think the standard is AS/NZS 4755:2012.

I can obviously ensure the devices i get are not compliant with such standards but it would be easier to just not have a smart meter.

The "smart meters" we get in NZ are actually really dumb.

Basically they are just dumb meters that can be remotely read so the power companies don't have to pay meter readers.

They do also allow provide 1/2 hourly usage data allowing power companies to sell plans with different pricing for on peak / off peak power, or provide pricing that is based on 1/2 hourly wholesale rates like flick energy does.

Proper smart meter's that can send signals to control loads are pretty much just theoretical in NZ at the moment. (hot water load shedding still uses very old tech to do the job).

Even if NZ gets proper smart meters that can communicate with load's, it is highly likely they will only do stuff that would be invisible to the customer. (I.e. delaying your freezers defrost cycle 4 hours if power supply is tight)

When doing some research I noticed some power companies mentioned "remote meter reading" devices when a smart meter wouldn't work, that's why I assume we actually have smart meters being installed.

I did notice that the main devices targeted for the "demand management" aspect of the NZS 4755 standards are air conditioners. I do have a hunch that our power grid will not be able to keep up with peak demand in the next few years and eventually we won't have a choice about some of these measures. I imagine the biggest drain on the power grid during peak demand will soon be electric vehicles and home cooling and we will get some form off involuntary rationing.

michaelmurfy

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#2744318 15-Jul-2021 00:29

You really don't have a reason not to get a smart meter and what you are quoting is nothing short of a conspiracy really. You're reading too much into it.

Lines companies already have the ability to turn off high load appliances when they need to - you can also pay extra to be on an uncontrolled plan which means you're exempt from them turning stuff off. This is not Smart Meter dependent.

But if you don't allow your lines company to install a smart meter when there is really no reason to then they'll likely charge you over and above even the uncontrolled plan to make up the meter readers wages.

So your answer is yes you may keep your analogue meter but be prepared to pay extra for it. I know this isn't "what power company to go with" but given you really do not have any reason not to have a smart meter, if you want to go down this route then pick up the phone and call power companies to determine if they'll allow dumb meters. You'll find the bigger providers (Trustpower, Genesis, Nova, Contact etc) may allow for it but it is really up to your lines company if they will support a dumb meter for you when everyone around you has a smart meter.

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sparkz25

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#2744322 15-Jul-2021 06:34

charliebrownnz:

Thanks for the response. My understanding is many of the new standards for smart devices will allow smart meters to have some degree of control over them. For instance, turn the thermostat down\up on a heat pump system. I think the standard is AS/NZS 4755:2012.

I can obviously ensure the devices i get are not compliant with such standards but it would be easier to just not have a smart meter.

You do have to take into account that the Aircon unit will need to be wired through the load shedding contact of the meter for this to work, and the only reason we use load shedding is for electric hot water and this is at a slightly cheaper rate because of the load shedding. if you were to have a analogue meter they will still use load shedding just by the means of ripple control.

I definitely think you're getting ahead of your self here.

JayADee

2115 posts

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#2744341 15-Jul-2021 07:32

You'll have to ring each power company I reckon. I know when I switched power companies some time ago some wouldn’t accept a new connection without having a smart metre. At some stage my then current power company switched it for free to a pretty dumb smart metre and we haven’t had any issues with it. I remember when it was switched over I googled the types of smart metres and I think back then there were 2 different kinds commonly installed. No idea what kind are standard now.

charliebrownnz

79 posts

Master Geek

#2744403 15-Jul-2021 09:39

michaelmurfy:
You really don't have a reason not to get a smart meter and what you are quoting is nothing short of a conspiracy really. You're reading too much into it.

Lines companies already have the ability to turn off high load appliances when they need to - you can also pay extra to be on an uncontrolled plan which means you're exempt from them turning stuff off. This is not Smart Meter dependent.

But if you don't allow your lines company to install a smart meter when there is really no reason to then they'll likely charge you over and above even the uncontrolled plan to make up the meter readers wages.

So your answer is yes you may keep your analogue meter but be prepared to pay extra for it. I know this isn't "what power company to go with" but given you really do not have any reason not to have a smart meter, if you want to go down this route then pick up the phone and call power companies to determine if they'll allow dumb meters. You'll find the bigger providers (Trustpower, Genesis, Nova, Contact etc) may allow for it but it is really up to your lines company if they will support a dumb meter for you when everyone around you has a smart meter.

Thanks for the answer. I am a little bit of a conspiracy theorist, but I don't consider predicting power shortages as being a conspiracy theory. I certainly don't worry about it for health reasons as some do. If you look at the NZS 4755 standards it is tailored to enable surge pricing and power rationing in times of shortages.

I know mercury energy doesn't give you the option for an analogue meter. I will call trustpower.

Scott3

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#2744413 15-Jul-2021 09:55

charliebrownnz: Ok, let's get back to my question. Are their companies in the bop that will allow me to keep my old analogue meter?

Just ignore my motivation and humor me, I could fear the microwave radiation or believe that a cobination of population growth, electric vehicles, reduction in 24/7 reliable power supply will lead to power rationing of "non-essential" devices in a few years time; or fear that government will compel power companies to release all the data for its own nefarious purposes.

As others have said, you would have to call and ask. I think several won't have an issue with it.

They still have meter readers for people in cellular dead spots and people on old meters.

I understand that power companies have to notify you before swapping your meter, and you are within your rights to decline access to your property for this purpose.

If you meter fails, you might not have a choice. Not sure any lines companies will install new analog meters these days (or even have any to install)... That said they are normally pretty reliable.

cyril7

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#2744414 15-Jul-2021 09:55

Hi, I used to be involved in the design or "smart" meters, it was a few years back, but I think you will find no company will let you use a spinning disk meter any more. Also I think you are twitching your conspiracy knuckle a bit much, currently to my knowledge none of the "Smart' meters in use have the ability to remotely or actively operate devices in your home, they simply have the ability to remotely report the readings with half hour data if requested. Some have inbuild relays to allow integral "ripple control" type service without the need for a ripple control relay, but that is nothing different to what you will already have.

Cyril

OldGeek

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#2744460 15-Jul-2021 10:37

charliebrownnz:

When doing some research I noticed some power companies mentioned "remote meter reading" devices when a smart meter wouldn't work, that's why I assume we actually have smart meters being installed.

I did notice that the main devices targeted for the "demand management" aspect of the NZS 4755 standards are air conditioners. I do have a hunch that our power grid will not be able to keep up with peak demand in the next few years and eventually we won't have a choice about some of these measures. I imagine the biggest drain on the power grid during peak demand will soon be electric vehicles and home cooling and we will get some form off involuntary rationing.

The fact is the positioning of the meter, regardless of whether it is smart or not, prohibits selective physical load control. Every electrical device is downstream of the meter and therefore if the meter was capable of switching, it would be everything off or on. Note that a copy NZS 4755 requires a fee to be paid so I have not been able to see this.

The sort of load control you envisage would require targeted devices (such as heat pumps) to have remote switching installed such that your power company would be able to remotely turn them off or on in the same way as current ripple control. While a smart meter could be used for measurement of on-premises power consumption, the absence of such a meter will probably result in your targeted devices being turned off more frequently or for longer when your power company wishes to exercise their control.

As others have said this sort of load control is not in place. It is extremely unlikely ever to be put in place because of prohibitive cost including secure retrofitting to existing appliances.

The standard approach to protecting the electricity distribution network from excessive demand is simply to impose rotating blackouts. If this happens the type of meter used is irrelevant. Note that this approach was widely used in post-WWII NZ when the domestic electricity demand expanded greatly, fixed in the 1950s onward when generation came online (initially from the Waikato river hydro dams). Note that during this era, electricity supply was a government department and those blackouts were tolerated as part of post-war economic development.

So anyone wishing to avoid future issues with electricity supply reliability will need to go off the grid and stay there.

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