Aluminium window insulation

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33coupe

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#296404 14-Jun-2022 20:00

Apologies if this is something that has been posted to death. I did search here and Google, and 60 tabs later I still couldn't find a definitive answer.

I'm in a new build house in Christchurch with double glazed aluminium windows.
Now we're in winter I've realised how terrible they are, so cold to touch, and I'm sure the reason why the house gets so cold.

(Unfortunately thermally broken or uPVC wasn't an option when building due to limited funds)

Would anyone know of a way of reducing the temperature impact they have? Any products or companies?
Ideally it would be something that stays on and looks ok, I wouldn't be keen to diy each year.

Or am I out of luck and just have to suck it up for a few months?
Thanks

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#2926580 14-Jun-2022 20:19

Curtains or Roman blinds are probably the best option. My Roman blinds seal against the window frame so give excellent insulation. It's important with curtains that they seal at the top and / or bottom to prevent the chimney effect.

Don't do any of the temporary stick on things. I did that once with wooden windows, it worked but I had to repaint all the frames.

tweake

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#2927716 15-Jun-2022 09:59

some of the blind options can give good insulation, however that will not stop condensation on the frames (it will make it a tad worse). only way is to glue insulation layer on it which is not all that practical. only way to properly fix it is to replace the windows.

you can see why, hopefully in a few months time, those windows won't be allowed to be installed in nz anymore. once the industry is up to speed on supplies, the price will come down and it may be more feasible to change the window frames (and keep the old glass).

33coupe

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#2927725 15-Jun-2022 10:14

Thanks for the replies. I have one Roman blind installed (funnily enough that's the only window that gets some condensation), bedrooms have curtains, rest of house has roller blinds, Venetian, vertical.

As much as Im trying to reduce cold temperature in the house, I probs should open curtains/blinds for daylight lol so i was trying to find something else that could help.

I do have a ducted heatpump/ lossnay system installed, but I was thinking if I could find a way to improve the window frame temperature, it would need less money spent on heating etc.

Looks like replacement is the only way, and that's not going to happen any time soon, so will just have to suck it up.

Thanks for the replies and info

itxtme

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#2927772 15-Jun-2022 10:16

33coupe:

(Unfortunately thermally broken or uPVC wasn't an option when building due to limited funds)

Non thermally broken should be banned! Its two steps forward, one step back!

There is basically nothing you can do about the condensation forming, its warm vs stone cold. As has been said, curtains, or blinds although really you are only fighting the frames and less so the glass. Also no help during the day when you want them open.

timmmay

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#2927776 15-Jun-2022 10:32

We have PVC double glazing and still get some condensation in bedrooms on really cold days. It's about 90% less than we had with the old single glazed windows. We also have a ducted heat pump, and a positive pressure ventilation system. Every day I run the ventilation system for a couple of hours at the same time as the ducted system is on "fan only" to push moisture from the rooms, I keep the windows cracked open and find that some air is pushed outside.

All in all I don't think there's any practical solution to your problem other than blinds or curtains, and making sure the house is reasonably well ventilated during the day.

tweake:

some of the blind options can give good insulation, however that will not stop condensation on the frames (it will make it a tad worse). only way is to glue insulation layer on it which is not all that practical. only way to properly fix it is to replace the windows.

Why do blinds / curtains make the problem worse? They would make the area behind the blinds colder, and a smaller temperature differential would usually mean less condensation.

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#2927788 15-Jun-2022 10:58

timmmay:

Why do blinds / curtains make the problem worse? They would make the area behind the blinds colder, and a smaller temperature differential would usually mean less condensation.

because the insulation is between the house interior and the frame, your insulating the heat away from the frame making the frame colder (also it reduces air movement as well). colder frame = condensation.

a lot of the ventilation systems are setup so they blow air across the ceiling which hits the walls and travels down the walls and behind the curtains. this reduces condensation at the expense of heating. you also may notice you get condensation across the bottom of the window as that tends to be the coldest as warm air gets dragged down behind the curtain and keeps the top warm.

easy way to have no condensation is to open the curtains (assuming the room is well heated which is often no the case in nz) and let the room heat the windows. warm windows = no condensation.

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#2927791 15-Jun-2022 11:03

33coupe: Thanks for the replies. I have one Roman blind installed (funnily enough that's the only window that gets some condensation), bedrooms have curtains, rest of house has roller blinds, Venetian, vertical.

As much as Im trying to reduce cold temperature in the house, I probs should open curtains/blinds for daylight lol so i was trying to find something else that could help.

I do have a ducted heatpump/ lossnay system installed, but I was thinking if I could find a way to improve the window frame temperature, it would need less money spent on heating etc.

Looks like replacement is the only way, and that's not going to happen any time soon, so will just have to suck it up.

Thanks for the replies and info

the roman blind insulates quite well hence the condensation. your other curtains not so much. really common to have poor insulating curtains. common problem is not having them go all the way to the floor.

also keep in mind, most of your heating cost has already been spend. the cost of running heat pump is trivial, you have already spent it on the install price. so enjoy it. set it and leave it running. the most common problem is people let the house cool down.

33coupe

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#2927839 15-Jun-2022 12:07

Thanks for that info, really great.

Due to having a 10 month old I do use the heating more, I just wondered if there was an aftermarket solution as I'm sure the majority of homes/new builds have aluminium frames. It's pretty unbelievable how cold they are so touch in a cold morning (1 hour heatpump probs not enough in the mornings)

I'm regards to ventilation we run the lossnay 24x7 on highest speed, and never open the windows, this was advised by the installer (could/should also use the heatpump fan as it moves more air through the ducts etc but we only use that when I notice any moisture/fairly small amount of condensation).

timmmay

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#2927842 15-Jun-2022 12:15

When we had a young child we never turned the heating off. We were surprised the power bill didn't go up all that much, probably because even though our house is old it's well insulated.

I thought temperature differential increased condensation, rather than similar temperatures. High temperatures = more moisture in the air = more condensation. Cooler temperatures = less moisture in the air = less condensation.

SATTV

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#2927849 15-Jun-2022 12:28

itxtme:

Non thermally broken should be banned! Its two steps forward, one step back!

I believe there was an announcement last month on that, I think it take effect next year, you also have to get top Argon? filled double glazing as well.

I know enough to be dangerous

tweake

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#2927850 15-Jun-2022 12:29

33coupe: Thanks for that info, really great.

Due to having a 10 month old I do use the heating more, I just wondered if there was an aftermarket solution as I'm sure the majority of homes/new builds have aluminium frames. It's pretty unbelievable how cold they are so touch in a cold morning (1 hour heatpump probs not enough in the mornings)

I'm regards to ventilation we run the lossnay 24x7 on highest speed, and never open the windows, this was advised by the installer (could/should also use the heatpump fan as it moves more air through the ducts etc but we only use that when I notice any moisture/fairly small amount of condensation).

i'm not up on the finer details of the lossnay system, i'm surprised you could run the ventilation side independently. they are really meant to work together. thats because heating ducts are typically to big for ventilation so they should use the heat pump fan to circulate the air. eg it pumps 70% house hold air and 30% ventilation air around the house. in high end homes they will run separate duct systems for the ventilation and heating.

with the windows i doubt you can do anything aftermarket because the problem is inside the frame itself.

like most of nz you just have to suck it up and put up with the crap.

just use the heating, its just a cost. set it and forget it.

kiwis unfortunately have a culture of not using heating, especially electric. hence no shortage of moldy homes.

the fairly recent stories of a certain cot brand that gone moldy actually highlights it. blame the manufacture instead of the lack of heating.

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tweake

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#2927853 15-Jun-2022 12:31

SATTV:

itxtme:

Non thermally broken should be banned! Its two steps forward, one step back!

I believe there was an announcement last month on that, I think it take effect next year, you also have to get top Argon? filled double glazing as well.

comes into effect this year.

however as per usual industry are complaining and they are looking at extending the change over period, which frankly is ridiculous.

tweake

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#2927903 15-Jun-2022 12:41

timmmay:

When we had a young child we never turned the heating off. We were surprised the power bill didn't go up all that much, probably because even though our house is old it's well insulated.

I thought temperature differential increased condensation, rather than similar temperatures. High temperatures = more moisture in the air = more condensation. Cooler temperatures = less moisture in the air = less condensation.

i think what your missing is that if you keep that surface warm then you don't get condensation on it. so if you heat the window frame no condensation. if you stop the heat from getting to the frame, the frame cools down to outside temps and then you get condensation on it. ie "temperature differential increased condensation"

high air temps = lower humidity, cold air temps = higher humidity (for the same amount of moisture in the air) number one way to keep a home dry in winter is to keep it warm.

tweake

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#2927909 15-Jun-2022 12:52

timmmay:

When we had a young child we never turned the heating off. We were surprised the power bill didn't go up all that much, probably because even though our house is old it's well insulated.

exactly.

heating the air takes very little energy. heating the walls, the mass of the house, takes a huge amount. so once its heated up all you have to do is keep it warm. plus heaters all have thermostats so they only run when required.

the problem comes in because nz homes are often so bad that people can't afford to heat over night and then we get into nz culture of not heating homes.

i find it interesting that we complain about cost of heating but don't make good houses that need very little heating.

timmmay

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#2927933 15-Jun-2022 13:30

My house was uninsulated when I purchased it 15 years ago, it was super cold. Now with lots of ceiling insulation, wall and underfloor, double glazing, thick underlay and carpet, it retains the heat much much better. Putting in the ducted heating is good. The house loses heat more quickly because the ducts are effectively large, poorly insulated holes in the ceiling, but since we leave it on when it's cold it doesn't matter so much.

Heating the contents of the house is very true. Can take hours or maybe even days to full heat through, after that it is much easier to keep warm.

Ventilation is important, the water in moist air costs more. That's why we turn the ventilation on during the warm part of the day, plus a bit in the evening to get rid of cooking smells and freshen the place up.

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