Panasonic vs Mitsubishi ducted heat pump and ventilation solutions

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AlDrag

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#317746 11-Nov-2024 18:05

We just bought our first home from fletchers, and of course it's a 2-storey townhouse with only a single heat pump downstairs (frustrates me that this is normal, would cost them hardly anything to have full ducting during the build process).

I've had 2 different specialists come to the house with a quote. The first pushed Panasonic super heavily (the second lightly), with the typical marketing lingo etc. This is despite that my initial query was for Mitsubish. To be fair, Panasonic is definitely cheaper and I imagine the external unit itself is probably very similar to Mitsubishi? But I feel like they get a much bigger kickback from Panasonic.

Now my main concern with Panasonic is two-things:
- NanoeX. I don't like the idea of it and just seems so unnecessary...I need to read some research papers on it though.
- EneKan vs Lossnay. Seems like Lossnay is really awesome and I haven't heard of EneKan before as I think it's a brand new balanced ventilation solution.

So Mitsubishi comes with a premium, but is it worth it? With Lossnay etc?
Is Panasonic really just as good? Do companies actually get a big kickback from them?

Anyone own a EneKan Ventilation system?

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#3307835 11-Nov-2024 19:23

nanoeX, there is a few different versions, but its all roughly the same BS. they are ionizers or hydroxyl generators. they make ozone and other bad stuff. they turn one pollution into other pollution. however it should be able to be turned off. my early model it turns on with the unit, which is annoying. later models stays off. i have them all off because the ozone gives me a sore throat.

EneKan Ventilation looks like is actually panasonic. looks like they are finally selling their erv's here. they have been available overseas for a long time.

however, unless your house is air tight enough, balanced ventilation (enekan and loosnay) are a waste of money. ideally get a blower door test done on the house then you can work out what you need. balanced ventilation opens a few doors, eg using it to replace the bathroom fans. also if you know the blower door results you can work out if the range hood is going to cause problems.

erv vers hrv (not the brand). panasonic is erv only (afaik). loosnay is erv and more recently has hrv available. erv's will keep outdoor humidity out (handy for auckland north), but keep indoor moisture in. they are normally paired with whole home dehumidifier. hrv's don't do anything with moisture so are safer to use and don't need dehumidifier.

what to use is going to depend on how air tight the house is, your climate and expectations.

timmmay

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#3307843 11-Nov-2024 19:51

Have you read the sticky thread about ducted systems? I mention my experience with Panasonic in there. I suggest you read the whole thing, but the "Panasonic Ducted" section is most relevant for you right now. In summary: I no longer buy anything made by Panasonic.

I would think hard before I put in another ducted system, compared with individual or multi-split units. If I did put in a ducted system I would require temperature sensors in each room, as I have with my Daikin + Airtouch.

AlDrag

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#3307901 12-Nov-2024 07:12

tweake:

nanoeX, there is a few different versions, but its all roughly the same BS. they are ionizers or hydroxyl generators. they make ozone and other bad stuff. they turn one pollution into other pollution. however it should be able to be turned off. my early model it turns on with the unit, which is annoying. later models stays off. i have them all off because the ozone gives me a sore throat.

Right. Having it always turned off would definitely be a requirement for me.

tweake:

EneKan Ventilation looks like is actually panasonic. looks like they are finally selling their erv's here. they have been available overseas for a long time.

however, unless your house is air tight enough, balanced ventilation (enekan and loosnay) are a waste of money. ideally get a blower door test done on the house then you can work out what you need. balanced ventilation opens a few doors, eg using it to replace the bathroom fans. also if you know the blower door results you can work out if the range hood is going to cause problems.

erv vers hrv (not the brand). panasonic is erv only (afaik). loosnay is erv and more recently has hrv available. erv's will keep outdoor humidity out (handy for auckland north), but keep indoor moisture in. they are normally paired with whole home dehumidifier. hrv's don't do anything with moisture so are safer to use and don't need dehumidifier.

what to use is going to depend on how air tight the house is, your climate and expectations.

This is a brand new townhouse, so I imagine it's very air tight. All the doors seem very well sealed and obviously high insulation.

AlDrag

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#3307903 12-Nov-2024 07:16

timmmay:

Have you read the sticky thread about ducted systems? I mention my experience with Panasonic in there. I suggest you read the whole thing, but the "Panasonic Ducted" section is most relevant for you right now. In summary: I no longer buy anything made by Panasonic.

I would think hard before I put in another ducted system, compared with individual or multi-split units. If I did put in a ducted system I would require temperature sensors in each room, as I have with my Daikin + Airtouch.

I have read it. Just read it again, and yea maybe I should avoid Panasonic....our existing heat pump downstairs is Panasonic though, but that's fine...just a regular wallsplit.

I've read that a lot of people are happy with their ducted system without zone control...but obviously read some like you that weren't, so unsure if I want to spend the big bucks to get AirTouch5. Supposedly the Mitsubishi gets basic zone control though...

I was thinking about multi-split, but I don't like it aestheitcally. We have 3 really small bedrooms (about 3 x 3.2) and thus want to keep the walls free from any splits. I also want Lossnay (Maybe that can be integrated into splits though).

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#3307910 12-Nov-2024 07:45

tweake:

nanoeX, there is a few different versions, but its all roughly the same BS. they are ionizers or hydroxyl generators. they make ozone and other bad stuff.

interestingly, google says Ozone is a safe and powerful treatment of autoimmune disease ... i wonder if this heatpump helps joint pains ... probably negated by the other bad stuff you say it makes.

Ragnor

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#3308199 12-Nov-2024 17:10

What's the budget?

Several years ago we went with a Fujistu ducted system with a fresh air intake addon instead of the Mitsubishi ducted heat pump + lossany purely on a cost/budget choice. Our peak overnight co2 with 2 adults and 1 primary age kid stays in the 700-800ppm range on lowest fan setting, lower co2 if you're willing to run fan higher and spend more $$$. I haven't checked in a while but fairly sure >1000ppm with system off overnight, 90s build house so probably not very air tight either.

Today, being far more aware of air quality, I would probably spend the extra $$$ and go for the Mitsubishi ducted heat pump + lossany.

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AlDrag

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#3308206 12-Nov-2024 17:19

Ragnor:
What's the budget?

Several years ago we went with a Fujistu ducted system with a fresh air intake addon instead of the Mitsubishi ducted heat pump + lossany purely on a cost/budget choice. Our peak overnight co2 with 2 adults and 1 primary age kid stays in the 700-800ppm range on lowest fan setting, lower co2 if you're willing to run fan higher and spend more $$$. I haven't checked in a while but fairly sure >1000ppm with system off overnight, 90s build house so probably not very air tight either.

Today, being far more aware of air quality, I would probably spend the extra $$$ and go for the Mitsubishi ducted heat pump + lossany.

We have the money for any solution really, just trying to decide what's "worth it". This isn't our forever home, so don't expect to get the money back, but we plan to be in it for 8-10 years.

I've been quoted for a basic 7k Panasonic system. Just ducted. Nothing else.

Been quoted about 12.5k with Mitsubishi ducted and lossnay and basic zone control (not airtouch).

These are tiny units due to small rooms. Like 5-6kw. The tricky part is trying to cool the landing/hall area. As it has a space for a desk that I want as an office, but it's a landing that's completely open to the stairs and thus to the downstairs area.

tweake

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#3308218 12-Nov-2024 17:53

AlDrag:

This is a brand new townhouse, so I imagine it's very air tight. All the doors seem very well sealed and obviously high insulation.

no, not even close. i highly doubt its air tight, let alone very air tight. if for some reason you think its air tight, get a blower door test done. then you have real numbers to work off. if its very air tight, then range hoods not going to work well and you will need a fix for that. even bath fans may not work properly.

you may simply end up turning the balanced ventilation into a positive pressure system just to account for the lack of air tightness.

simple put nz building relies on the gib for air tightness and no one seals any holes in the gib (houses are not built to be airtight). eg a plumber making a hole oversized to allow for plumbing, that screws the air tightness straight away. with townhouses you can sometimes be tighter because of sheathing, but they do that for bracing and its typically not air sealed. in nz you have to build air tight on purpose, its rare that it will be air tight accidently.

AlDrag

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#3308219 12-Nov-2024 17:56

tweake:
no, not even close. i highly doubt its air tight, let alone very air tight. if for some reason you think its air tight, get a blower door test done. then you have real numbers to work off. if its very air tight, then range hoods not going to work well and you will need a fix for that. even bath fans may not work properly.

you may simply end up turning the balanced ventilation into a positive pressure system just to account for the lack of air tightness.

simple put nz building relies on the gib for air tightness and no one seals any holes in the gib (houses are not built to be airtight). eg a plumber making a hole oversized to allow for plumbing, that screws the air tightness straight away. with townhouses you can sometimes be tighter because of sheathing, but they do that for bracing and its typically not air sealed. in nz you have to build air tight on purpose, its rare that it will be air tight accidently.

Right. That's good to know. I had no idea. I can't remember where I was getting my information from...

Is a blower door test expensive to do? Maybe it isn't worth getting a ventilation solution like lossnay then?

tweake

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#3308221 12-Nov-2024 18:01

AlDrag:

We have 3 really small bedrooms (about 3 x 3.2) and thus want to keep the walls free from any splits. I also want Lossnay (Maybe that can be integrated into splits though).

with that size, you may struggle to find a split thats small enough (depending on location of course). that size room is very common in older nz houses eg my spare bedroom/office. i have the 2nd smallest size and thats way oversized to the point of it doesn't run right. but i'm in northland.

Lossnay would be completely separate to the splits. its a stand alone ventilation system with its own ducts etc.

also one little thing to watch. many sales people will "forget" to install a separate filter for the lossnay (or other balanced ventilation) relying on its built in filters which causes a host of issues (typically low rated, expensive and non standard sizing). its a away of making the quote cheaper.

AlDrag

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#3308223 12-Nov-2024 18:10

tweake:
with that size, you may struggle to find a split thats small enough (depending on location of course). that size room is very common in older nz houses eg my spare bedroom/office. i have the 2nd smallest size and thats way oversized to the point of it doesn't run right. but i'm in northland.

Lossnay would be completely separate to the splits. its a stand alone ventilation system with its own ducts etc.

also one little thing to watch. many sales people will "forget" to install a separate filter for the lossnay (or other balanced ventilation) relying on its built in filters which causes a host of issues (typically low rated, expensive and non standard sizing). its a away of making the quote cheaper.

Hahaha right. At least that rules out splits then.

It is tiny. The unfortunate reality that hit me hard once I went conditional. But this is why I want to maximise space as much as possible.

That's great advice about the filters! Exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. I'm so scared of this being installed in a way we will regret, as there's so many pros/cons, no perfect solutions. E.g. Should the outdoor unit stack on the existing one out in the tiny backyard? Or should it go on the side of the house to avoid extra noise where we may sit outside.

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tweake

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#3308224 12-Nov-2024 18:10

AlDrag:

Is a blower door test expensive to do? Maybe it isn't worth getting a ventilation solution like lossnay then?

i don't know costs and i suspect it will vary quite a bit around the country.

thats just it. it comes down to if the extra cost is worth it. also that with air leaky homes your adding a lot more ventilation.

tho its worth noting one big advantage with Lossnay is integration with the mitsi ducted heat pumps. its a neat solution. otherwise its bit of a hack job and i've seen some absolutely butchered integration.

AlDrag

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#3308225 12-Nov-2024 18:12

tweake:
i don't know costs and i suspect it will vary quite a bit around the country.

thats just it. it comes down to if the extra cost is worth it. also that with air leaky homes your adding a lot more ventilation.

tho its worth noting one big advantage with Lossnay is integration with the mitsi ducted heat pumps. its a neat solution. otherwise its bit of a hack job and i've seen some absolutely butchered integration.

I remember now, one of the installers mentioned that we need a balanced ventilation system (opposed to positive) as our attic has exhausts in it (to dispel hot air in the attic I assume, and also maybe integrate with room exhausts like bathrooms etc).

Does that make any sense?

tweake

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#3308229 12-Nov-2024 18:18

AlDrag: I'm so scared of this being installed in a way we will regret,

make sure you go through with them on how it will be installed. sales people will talk bs all day long and poor installation can turn a good system into a crap one.

how are you going to get ducts to the rooms? multi storied? how do you get it to the other story?

i assume the indoor unit will be installed in the ceiling space. there is always the issue of duct leakage. which means the heat pump pushes air out of the house and the house sucks in air from outside or the neighbors house. one reason you want to make sure the house is under pressure.

tweake

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#3308230 12-Nov-2024 18:23

AlDrag:

I remember now, one of the installers mentioned that we need a balanced ventilation system (opposed to positive) as our attic has exhausts in it (to dispel hot air in the attic I assume, and also maybe integrate with room exhausts like bathrooms etc).

Does that make any sense?

no, that makes no sense. all attics have vents, primarily the ridge vent.

the only one could be is if you have a "hot roof". ie the insulation is just under the roof and not down on the ceiling. if thats the case, excellent as that helps a lot.

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