2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2821495 30-Nov-2021 11:48

tdgeek:

alasta:

I am becoming increasingly concerned about the staff who will have to check vaccine certificates and ultimately turn people away if they can't produce them. In most cases these will be young low wage workers who will have to frequently deal with verbal abuse from aggressive anti-social nutters. It wouldn't surprise me if they even end up on the receiving end of physical assaults. How are small businesses going to manage their health & safety obligations around this if they don't have the financial means to contract security guards?

Ideally the police should be regularly visiting cafes, bars and cinemas as an "anytime, anywhere" style of deterrent, but do they actually have the resources to do this?

I can see this being a source of major tension between the government and unions.

That will happen, it happens now in various premises unrelated to Covid or mandates. Why would someone go to a vax only premise when they know they need a cert that they don't have? That wont happen, not unless anyone has been living under a rock. So I dont see that as being a common issue, it will be more the domain of militant anti vaxxers being trouble makers, but I don't see it being rife every day and every night

Unfortunately I fear some of the antivaxxer are zealots just like the anti meat eating crowd. Some will turn up on purpose to make a fuss. Also They live in an online echo chamber and don't realise how small their world really is.

I think there are two ways to handle this.

Don't make the venue owner the person who has to police this. They just have to make sure their staff are compliant and they need to make it known all customers have to be vaccinated.

The police are the people who should perform random checks for vaccination certificates, just as they do for drink driving or under age drinking.
When someone makes a fuss the other law abiding patrons need to step up and show support for for the person doing their job when checking vaccination status.

Once the very small minority of unvaccinated people realise they are very much in the minority they will quietly go and get vaccinated and or stop making fuss.

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#2821496 30-Nov-2021 11:48

quickymart: Can I go to the beach with my boys, or is that not permitted, and if it is do I need to wear a mask?

Yes and no in that order. Distancing and mask are "encouraged" if you're in a red area.

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#2821498 30-Nov-2021 11:50

vexxxboy:

quickymart:

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone stopped listening to the antivax conspiracy theorists and actually voted with their feet/wallets. A few more of them might see the error of their ways.

I just get frustrated that the Facebook page for my home area is run by someone who is possibly anti vaxx (she leaves up posts supporting Voices for freedom, and also links to the No Jab Jobs page, etc) but she also appears to be very anti Government. Lots of Jacinda memes and crap like that.

Someone asked about businesses that were supporting unvaccinated people. It was reported and she said "post is staying up! A community is everyone, vaccinated and unvaccinated!" (or words to that effect).

Makes me wonder what she would do if she actually caught the virus. My personal opinion is someone like that shouldn't be running a community page or have anything to do with it.

it is much the same in Murupara , where the local and very popular doctor is very Anti- Vax and because of that they have one of the lowest vaccination rates in NZ, it's a shame because when covid arrives it will destroy the village.

Murupara has a high Maori population. The G.P. would not do this in Remuera or the heart of Epsom, for fear of being reported.

The same is true of Northland. Two Antivaxx Gps censured by the Medical council in Whangarei.

Te Tai Rawhit, Antivaxxers clogging the vaccine booking system with false bookings.

All high Maori areas, with profound negative impacts on the locals in the age of rapid misinformation spread.

The recent NBC article on the Antivaxx movement being used by American far right white supremacists as a Trojan horse to target indigenous groups is case in point. It is unfortunate, however a good thing, that the NBC outed what is happening in this country specifically.

Brian Tamaki of course, is the baddest of bad actors, using the US evangelicals template, the MAGA style cultism, to exploit primarily Maori. If I could get my hands on that guy legally in a boxing ring.....

The same phenomena played out in Samoa. During the measles epidemic, Western Samoa was bombarded by a coordinated attack from the same groups....leading Samoans to resist the vaccine despite the deaths of small infants (these deaths of course were blamed on the vaccine).

The Good news, is that since the resourcing of Maori providers, vaccine rates are increasing rappidly. We saw this first in Te Tai Rawhiti, where local providers worked along side the DHB.

The compounding issue of not using an equity model in the first place, which gives necessary targeted advantage to indigenous groups is that you repeat the same pattern of health failure endlessly.

The original cohorting model, was institutionally racist by design. It ensured that the bulk of the Maori population, would receive the vaccine last.

In the mean time, misinformation is spreading. But most of all, we missed the opportunity to vaccinate the Elders with the youth, pretty much how Maori culture rolls and the best weapon against the pandemic.

Indigenous models the world over you have to treat the family as a group, the groups as villages, the villages as tribes, the tribes as nations.

Anyway, the exciting thing is that despite their significant handicap to access to vaccines Maori are pushing vaccine rates up rappidly.

Now the strong message in Maori communities is personal responsibility, a message that is being taken on, as evidenced by the bulk of that population accepting the vaccine.

Just keep swimming...

Sup

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#2821515 30-Nov-2021 12:16

Interesting to get some clarification around these South African anecdotes of a milder form of Covid. The Doctor who had the most to say Anjelica Coetzee was in fact talking about a small group of two dozen young people.

So the kinds of groups that will have milder symptoms from Covid anyway. Also half this group were vaccinated, so again, a group likely to have milder disease.

And we are also talking about a region in South Africa that has the highest amount of natural immunity. Which in of itself, could be foreshadowing of immune escape, given Omicron is spreading rappidly there is Gauteng province.

So these factors paint a very different story to what might happen in countries with low rates of natural immunity, and they do not give any sense of how omicron interacts with older groups. Clearly we need to know what happens in highly vaccinated populations.

Interesting times. Watch this space.

Just keep swimming...

alasta

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#2821516 30-Nov-2021 12:17

tdgeek:

alasta:

I am becoming increasingly concerned about the staff who will have to check vaccine certificates and ultimately turn people away if they can't produce them. In most cases these will be young low wage workers who will have to frequently deal with verbal abuse from aggressive anti-social nutters. It wouldn't surprise me if they even end up on the receiving end of physical assaults. How are small businesses going to manage their health & safety obligations around this if they don't have the financial means to contract security guards?

Why would someone go to a vax only premise when they know they need a cert that they don't have? That wont happen, not unless anyone has been living under a rock.

A lot of people do live under a rock. They don't engage with the news media or public health messaging.

alasta

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#2821567 30-Nov-2021 12:20

Technofreak:

I think there are two ways to handle this.

Don't make the venue owner the person who has to police this. They just have to make sure their staff are compliant and they need to make it known all customers have to be vaccinated.

The police are the people who should perform random checks for vaccination certificates, just as they do for drink driving or under age drinking.

On reflection I think maybe the best way to handle it is for the venue to be required to check certificates and inform people that they can't enter without one, but not required to physically deny entry. That way the police can be called on anyone who is non-compliant.

I know it's not ideal, but it's probably the only way to ensure that employers can comply with their health & safety obligations.

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Sup

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#2821584 30-Nov-2021 12:31

A lot of people do live under a rock. They don't engage with the news media or public health messaging.

I do this myself when I go and live in country. I tune out of city news. Tune into the sea, land, and so forth. Very healing way to live for the mind.

However, during a crisis out comes the AM portable radio. I agree with what you say, a lot of people willfully disengage from the Grid while living on the Grid.

That makes even less sense.

Just keep swimming...

Paul1977

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#2821600 30-Nov-2021 12:47

I'll be interested to see how many places will scan the QR code to verify it.

MikeB4

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#2821603 30-Nov-2021 12:56

Paul1977:

I'll be interested to see how many places will scan the QR code to verify it.

If I go into an establishment that does not scan I will immediately walk out. If they don't care about customer safety I wont give them business.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#2821604 30-Nov-2021 12:56

Technofreak:

Unfortunately I fear some of the antivaxxer are zealots just like the anti meat eating crowd. Some will turn up on purpose to make a fuss. Also They live in an online echo chamber and don't realise how small their world really is.

Can you please use another example? I am a committed vegetarian but I am not a zealot. Nor are other vegetarians I know (some are on here). Being opposed to the consumption of meat has nothing to do with being opposed to vaccination and conflating the two does nothing to help mutual respect and understanding.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Scott3

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#2821606 30-Nov-2021 12:59

tdgeek:

Isn't the basis all around spread and hospital capability?

And that will be affected by any cases, vaccine % and where hospital beds are at. All that makes it very fluid.

As per what I bolded, also hospital beds. In fact case numbers will have less and less relevance as cases become dominated by vaccinated people who will have a huge benefit to their sickness, if any, and hospital beds, while the minority of people, the unvaccinated will dominate hospital beds. Cases go up, vaccinated in hospital go down anti vaxxers in hospital go up.

I still feel case numbers is in useful metric to track. A sudden spike in case-numbers forewarns of a incoming spoke in hospital load. Yes, vaccination does impact the relationship between the two, but the rate of new vaccinations is fairly slow now.

Government used other metrics to decide initial color - which was the obvious thing to do, given low covid-19 case numbers outside of auckland & waikato.

Once the protection framework has bedded in hospital load is just one criteria:

The whole think about hospital load could be politically tricky. Some hospitals like Tauranga were having issue's with load, even before covid-19 arrived in that area.

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#2821618 30-Nov-2021 13:21

If someones bored, a 1st jab report for the last week would Be interesting - to see if there's a blip after the realisation hit yesterday that holding out won't get a perk but will become a PITA come this weekend.

Malls will be a fun case too.. already see teens wandering around masks on their chin because they think the drink in the hand makes them bulletproof. Pro tip, 'restaurants' need to be seated to be unmasked. Not wandering around inside.
So given they also need to either seat you and check for pass. Or be contactless takeaway only. I bet there's some head scratching.

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#2821628 30-Nov-2021 13:28

MikeB4:

Paul1977:

I'll be interested to see how many places will scan the QR code to verify it.

If I go into an establishment that does not scan I will immediately walk out. If they don't care about customer safety I wont give them business.

don't come to (non urban) otago and southland

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#2821630 30-Nov-2021 13:31

Technofreak:

Unfortunately I fear some of the antivaxxer are zealots just like the anti meat eating crowd. Some will turn up on purpose to make a fuss. Also They live in an online echo chamber and don't realise how small their world really is.

there are "zealots" in any category

- religious and atheists - the same behaviour are found in both

- pro meat and pro vegan - same behavious are found in both

- EV and ICE vehicle owners - "

- politics

- choice/diversity

- you name anything there will be nice people and there will be militants, including anti vaccines and pro vaccines

as for me, i have better things to do with my time and energy

quickymart

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#2821632 30-Nov-2021 13:36

Batman:

MikeB4:

If I go into an establishment that does not scan I will immediately walk out. If they don't care about customer safety I wont give them business.

don't come to (non urban) otago and southland

That's quite depressing, apparently the west coast is like this too.

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