2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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MikeB4
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#2473429 29-Apr-2020 15:39

frankv:

dejadeadnz:

They knowingly took a risk and did nothing to control the crowds. There has also been reports that people were congregating because they needed to be close to the shop to hear their names being called out -- that's on the operator.

IANAL, but what power does a business have over people on the public street outside their shop? Surely a shopkeeper can't force someone to do anything, except on their own property? So, between the footpath and the counter, they can enforce 2m separation. But on the public footpath all they can do is to ask, I guess? (Do we know that they didn't ask? Do we know that they did nothing to control the crowds?) And, if that doesn't work, then I guess they need to call the police. Who did call the police?

It seems to me to be grossly unfair to hold someone responsible for something over which they have no control.

That is for them to work out if they want to stay open. All the Cafes I have seen today were all complying with the rules and it would appear that KFC are doing all they can.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

dejadeadnz

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#2473430 29-Apr-2020 15:41

frankv:

It seems to me to be grossly unfair to hold someone responsible for something over which they have no control.

Of course they've got control. The issue is that people are congregating around waiting for their orders because BF doesn't have a system that prevents this. I've already given you an example of a system that can work. Now if they've done everything practicable and people are still being dickheads, that's another matter. But they have not. In addition, they simply weren't equipped to handle this many orders and ended up being overwhelmed. They should have stopped taking orders.

But it's easier to ignore the facts and throw out facile points.

meesham

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#2473433 29-Apr-2020 15:44

frankv:

IANAL, but what power does a business have over people on the public street outside their shop? Surely a shopkeeper can't force someone to do anything, except on their own property? So, between the footpath and the counter, they can enforce 2m separation. But on the public footpath all they can do is to ask, I guess? (Do we know that they didn't ask? Do we know that they did nothing to control the crowds?) And, if that doesn't work, then I guess they need to call the police. Who did call the police?

It seems to me to be grossly unfair to hold someone responsible for something over which they have no control.

If they can't control the crowd that is interacting with them then they should be closed - they're not able to operate safely. As was mentioned previously they could do like other businesses have done and have people wait in their car until they're called or sent a text message.

Ge0rge

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#2473434 29-Apr-2020 15:45

MikeB4:
If things do not calm down at take away outlets urgently I feel the MOD DG should issue a new directive for them to close doors for anything other than contactless delivery.

They may not need to - apparently McDs in Fielding has closed this afternoon. Gone through two weeks worth of food in a day and a half. Unsure of when next delivery will be so shop shut.

dejadeadnz

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#2473436 29-Apr-2020 15:49

The underlying assumptions of a lot of the "Me! Me! Me!" and "Money! Money!" crowd in business and their defenders are disappointing as well. In this current environment, the question should not just be "How do I maximise my profits?" (if it ever should just be that). People need to ask themselves (and are required by law to ask) whether they can operate safely and what resources they can or will devote to making things safe. The better resourced you are, the more you should do. Don't just tell people about your rent, your costs, and spill tears in front of the camera. A lot of business owners like to give people the horse**** about treating staff like family. If this is how these people treat their work families, how they behave towards their own families doesn't bear thinking about.

Geektastic

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#2473442 29-Apr-2020 15:54

I watched an invitation-only webinar this morning with a well known NZ economist. He was not very upbeat, expecting (for example) unemployment measured in the hundreds of thousands.

It isn't going to be pretty.

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MikeB4

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#2473491 29-Apr-2020 15:59

@Ge0rge it's all those guys from Linton breaking out of mess food. 😀

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#2473493 29-Apr-2020 16:01

Geektastic:

I watched an invitation-only webinar this morning with a well known NZ economist. He was not very upbeat, expecting (for example) unemployment measured in the hundreds of thousands.

It isn't going to be pretty.

That is par for the course for economists they are all glass half empty folks.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

mattwnz

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#2473494 29-Apr-2020 16:05

MikeB4:

If things do not calm down at take away outlets urgently I feel the MOD DG should issue a new directive for them to close doors for anything other than contactless delivery.

I got the sense from the joint press conference today, that they only see these as teething problems with going down to level 3. So can't see that happening unless it persists. The reporters today seemed to ask the right questions.

I think the MOHs recommendation that we learnt about today, to close the borders , including to returning NZers sometime prior to level 4 occurring, just shows that there is so much going on in the background..

Ge0rge

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#2473496 29-Apr-2020 16:06

MikeB4:
@Ge0rge it's all those guys from Linton breaking out of mess food. 😀

As long as they aren't going to Burger Fuel - would hate for the firm to be complicit and thus raise the ire of dejadeadnz! :D

mattwnz

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#2473497 29-Apr-2020 16:06

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

I watched an invitation-only webinar this morning with a well known NZ economist. He was not very upbeat, expecting (for example) unemployment measured in the hundreds of thousands.

It isn't going to be pretty.

That is par for the course for economists they are all glass half empty folks.

It seems that half of economists say one thing, and the other half say the opposite.

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PolicyGuy

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#2473502 29-Apr-2020 16:12

frankv:
NumPy:

Aussie has 3 deaths per million, we have 4.

Those numbers are rounded. NZ is actually 3.88 and Aus 3.45 (rounded to 2 decimal places). If NZ had 2 fewer deaths, we would be about the same rate as Aus. That kind of difference gets down to whether someone decided to go ahead with a wedding on 21 March or not, or visited their granny in a rest home. I.e. statistically insignificant.

Also, the Aussies are not counting the deaths or infections they attribute to the Rose Princess "COVID-19 Cruise" in their figures.

dejadeadnz

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#2473506 29-Apr-2020 16:15

Clueless Fuel continues to be clueless

BurgerFuel says it is putting crowd controllers outside all its 56 New Zealand stores after customers mobbed an Auckland store last night waiting for contactless pick-up, defeating the purpose of the contactless nature of the system.

They don't get the concept of a hierarchy of controls. You don't start off with trying to control a risk after it has at least partially materialised. To their credit, they have started to limit orders to ensure there's a manageable volume but they are still missing out the point that their processes should be such that customers are actively disincentivised or have no need to queue up.

I'd expect a fairly junior and semi-intelligent risk management or health and safety specialist to be able to come up with something sound for something this simple. And the holding company for Burger Fuel is a listed company -- NZ businesses are frequently just amateur hour defined when it comes to legal compliance.

frankv

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#2473507 29-Apr-2020 16:15

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

I watched an invitation-only webinar this morning with a well known NZ economist. He was not very upbeat, expecting (for example) unemployment measured in the hundreds of thousands.

It isn't going to be pretty.

That is par for the course for economists they are all glass half empty folks.

There's no headlines and no publicity and no research funding in "Everything is going to be fine".

WolfChop

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#2473535 29-Apr-2020 16:48

I drove past my local McDonald's and saw that they had quite the queue forming in the drive-thru and was quite impressed to see a security guard at the entrance with cones lined up ensuring safe distancing before entering the restaurant.

Burger Fuel - you guys need to step your game up.

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