2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2507695 18-Jun-2020 19:41

Fred99:

(edit) - if we haven't managed to isolate quarantined arrivals from each other, and this case is contagion from one infected arrival to another, then we may as well not bother quarantining anybody - we're wasting out time.

@Fred99 indeed add that some at these quarantine facilities felt they would be safer from contagion (or spreading it if they were infectious) if they were in self isolation which of course would not cost the tax payer

And how much community infection that occurred can be attributed to those that came in before quarantine (like myself) but were in responsible self isolation?

MikeB4

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#2507697 18-Jun-2020 19:47

We will have double digit cases by months end with the current comedy of errors. They need to either manage this properly now or close the bloody borders. Not a pseudo closure but a proper closure.

tdgeek

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#2507698 18-Jun-2020 19:47

dejadeadnz:

The MoH's culture is utterly broken. The litany of mistakes and lying isn't acceptable. Firing Bloomfield sends the necessary message that these self-annointed kings/queens of the world are none of that and should actually start doing their jobs or risk losing it all. Frankly, some of them should be grateful that they are still living and free -- in plenty of countries the latter would be improbable and the former distinctly at risk after this level of balls up.

Im not disputing MoH or your opinion of it. I want to know who and what caused this. It "appears" that it was an operational error by someone, portably low in the food chain. If thats the case then its hardly vital to fire Bloomfield. I want to know more.

Quarantine wise, again do we fire Mike Bush? Thats more likely as the issues with managed isolaton are reported daily. Military is brought in now although they are already in, but will also evaluate. Thats the serious issue IMO, we cannot have a hotel being bubble. Yes, both are serious.

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#2507700 18-Jun-2020 19:58

Fred99:

dejadeadnz:

Person staying in the same hotel as the two dumb tarts showing symptoms

And note further the description by people near the hotel of those in isolation come into contact with others. At some point, you would have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe that this is all a beat up against the disgracefully in competent MoH and the Spinmaster-General.

Get ready for level 3.

Didn't see your post before posting the same link.

I'd also wager that in addition to MoH failures, using "private security firms' security guards" and "regular hotel management" to run quarantine centres is a very dumb idea.

Yes - lets see for a couple of days - maybe level 3, or just let it rip and kill and maim a massive number of people - because it was too hard for the authorities to understand what almost everybody posting to this forum has known since day one.

From what I heard on the video, its mainly Police, there is military, and there are security guards. That makes sense to me, the Police control this, military helping, security guards have an obvious benefit, but the hotel staff are feeding and cleaning. MoH and Govt set protocols for what is effectively level 4 in a hotel. Thats not happening, MoH isnt involved at all in management. Military is now being used to evacuate and take over, thats the clue. Police have failed, for whatever reason.

3000 people is a lot of people, in over a dozen centres, Id love to know how many staff they spared for this, they would need plenty.

As to level 3, won't happen. These centres are locked away, and from Tuesday very locked away. We always knew we would get more cases, these 3 could have arrived with no fanfare and avoided the last few days media, we would still have the 3 cases, as expected.YIu cant avoid that when you have a few hundred Kiwis every day coming in. They are supposed to be nabbed at the border, and they are, but managed isolation isnt being managed.

Fred99

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#2507702 18-Jun-2020 20:04

tdgeek:

As to level 3, won't happen.

It should if there's CT.

Here's what I think - we'll have CT, they'll avoid acknowledging it as it reflects on their incompetence - so won't lock down, pretend it's under control, by the time it's undeniable, we're stuffed. We wasted our time. End of story.

dejadeadnz

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#2507703 18-Jun-2020 20:04

Tdgeek:

For goodness sake, have you been following the news? I am not just talking about the cases of the two silly women. There's been numerous other cases of obvious balls up, including but hardly limited to:

1. The staff of the Chief Ombudsman being exposed to travelers isolating;

2. MoH letting 6 people meant to be isolating go to the tangi of some known mobster. Some or even all (at least 2) later did not immediately return and two of the runaways were not immediately tracked down; and

3. Numerous reports of people coming into close contact with travelers supposedly isolating.

Again, I repeat another point: balls ups are bad enough. But when you combine the endless balls ups with the nauseating PR spin and outright bullcrap that is now routinely coming out of the trap of the Spinmaster-General (e.g. the two dumb tarts doing nothing wrong, them having minimal contact with people when they are now contacting tracing 300+, and so forth), no one rational has any reason to believe a word that the MoH says. I don't give a crap about Mike Bush and god knows who else. The MoH has the most prominent role in this and it's worse than Chernobyl there -- try fixing the biggest crisis first.

dejadeadnz

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#2507704 18-Jun-2020 20:12

MikeB4:

We will have double digit cases by months end with the current comedy of errors. They need to either manage this properly now or close the bloody borders. Not a pseudo closure but a proper closure.

My wife and I are preparing ourselves for the likelihood of needing to lockdown again. I do risk management for a job and she's a doctor, so we aren't silly conspiracy theorists. This might be the most comedic display of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory ever. You couldn't make this up even if you tried. Let's just hope we don't have many people dead and gazillions losing their jobs.

Thanks for nothing, Bloomfield.

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tdgeek

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#2507706 18-Jun-2020 20:15

dejadeadnz:

Tdgeek:

For goodness sake, have you been following the news? I am not just talking about the cases of the two silly tarts. There's been numerous other cases of obvious balls up, including but hardly limited to:

1. The staff of the Chief Ombudsman being exposed to travelers isolating;

2. Imbeciles at MoH letting 6 people meant to be isolating go to the tangi of some known mobster. Some or even all (at least 2) later did not immediately return and two of the runaways were not immediately tracked down; and

3. Numerous reports of people coming into close contact with travelers supposedly isolating.

Again, I repeat another point: balls ups are bad enough. But when you combine the endless balls ups with the nauseating PR spin and outright bullcrap that is now routinely coming out of the trap of the Spinmaster-General (e.g. the two dumb tarts doing nothing wrong, them having minimal contact with people when they are now contacting tracing 300+, and so forth), no one rational has any reason to believe a word that the MoH says. I don't give a crap about Mike Bush and god knows who else. The MoH has the most prominent role in this and it's worse than Chernobyl there -- try fixing the biggest crisis first.

What I bolded is what Mike Bush owns. Of course the two tarts as you call them and the other runaways is poor to say the least, but all I read about here are the daily managed isolation centre issues, there are not MoH controlled, they are Police controlled. IMO that is the biggest crisis. The two tarts etc thats been fixed, leave has been suspended.

I very much hear what you are saying but the drama over these two tarts as you put it has taken over the media, thats the big story, but for me the lack of control at these 15 or 16 facilities is the big issue. Thats what the military are being brought in, as the Police cant do it, for whatever reason.

dejadeadnz

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#2507709 18-Jun-2020 20:20

What is with you obsession with Mike Bush? Bloomfield has come out and admitted that the MoH has failed. The guy is a spinmaster extraordinaire and even he's not denying it, yet we are somehow supposed to believe that it's Mike Bush's fault because you said so? By the way, in case you haven't noticed, Mike Bush hasn't been the Police Commissioner for a while.

The MoH has overall accountability for pandemic control under the Health Act -- even if somehow the sites are controlled by the police, it's up to the MoH to check that sites under government control/supervision/used for pandemic control purposes are managing pandemic control correctly.

tdgeek

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#2507722 18-Jun-2020 20:27

Fred99:

tdgeek:

As to level 3, won't happen.

It should if there's CT.

Here's what I think - we'll have CT, they'll avoid acknowledging it as it reflects on their incompetence - so won't lock down, pretend it's under control, by the time it's undeniable, we're stuffed. We wasted our time. End of story.

They could have held back todays Pakistan case for a few days, but it was today. (I probably would have)

What I think is: The useless state of managed isolation is contained as no one is allowed out now, not unless they are due to leave and test negative, so that is locked down so to speak. The 364 contacts of the two women have already been contacted, 27 to go at 1pm. If they followed the tight rules on the trio down, no issue. Even if they strayed and leaked a couple of infections, they can be ring fenced. Particularly with the media exposure. My guess is if they did stray, people would have told the media by now. There will be cases in the managed isolation centres ceased by the women, they will spread a bit or a lot but they are already contained.

Crisis averted, we will almost be where we should have been. 3 new cases, all locked away safely. Probably a few collateral cases on the way after this ball drop. Military run the centres, Police are out. Whoever released the two women relieved of that role goes back to previous role.

dejadeadnz

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#2507723 18-Jun-2020 20:29

And I should also add, it's up to the MoH to manage testing regimes. Alexander Gillespie (Professor of Law) has called for an inquiry on this -- frankly, it can't come soon enough, nor laws that criminalise dereliction of duties by civil servants. A significant number of people deserve severe jail time for this -- sadly, with criminal laws not being retrospective, many of the dicks responsible are going to get off with (at most) the loss of a job and a tattered reputation.

Meanwhile, more fun and games.

Even at the Novotel Ellerslie, where two women were allowed out early without a test, guests were given pamphlets this week saying they'd like them to take a test, but "you have the right to refuse". This makes it sound voluntary, but testing is actually compulsory.

So the MoH doesn't even understand the Health Act. I bet it was Mike Bush who drew up that pamphlet!!

tdgeek

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#2507724 18-Jun-2020 20:32

dejadeadnz:

What is with you obsession with Mike Bush? Bloomfield has come out and admitted that the MoH has failed. The guy is a spinmaster extraordinaire and even he's not denying it, yet we are somehow supposed to believe that it's Mike Bush's fault because you said so? By the way, in case you haven't noticed, Mike Bush hasn't been the Police Commissioner for a while.

The MoH has overall accountability for pandemic control under the Health Act -- even if somehow the sites are controlled by the police, it's up to the MoH to check that sites under government control/supervision/used for pandemic control purposes are managing pandemic control correctly.

No obsession. Its fact isnt it that Mike Bush runs the managed is isolation function, MoH has no control over that. Stated more than once in todays video. As you know and have rightly commented, there are massive issues in these centres, so thats why I raise Mike Bush. The daily reports of mingling etc etc and etc are very serious .

Bloomfield admitted responsibility for his fail which was letting the two women go without a test under his watch.

There are two issues.

dejadeadnz

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#2507725 18-Jun-2020 20:37

No, no matter how many times you assert otherwise, the MoH has responsibility for pandemic control under the Health Act. If you can't be bothered to read it or don't know how, that's not my problem. It's within my expertise to know this as a matter of fact. And they sure as hell have the responsibility for testing people.

tdgeek

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#2507728 18-Jun-2020 20:43

dejadeadnz:

And I should also add, it's up to the MoH to manage testing regimes. Alexander Gillespie (Professor of Law) has called for an inquiry on this -- frankly, it can't come soon enough, nor laws that criminalise dereliction of duties by civil servants. A significant number of people deserve severe jail time for this -- sadly, with criminal laws not being retrospective, many of the dicks responsible are going to get off with (at most) the loss of a job and a tattered reputation.

Meanwhile, more fun and games.

Even at the Novotel Ellerslie, where two women were allowed out early without a test, guests were given pamphlets this week saying they'd like them to take a test, but "you have the right to refuse". This makes it sound voluntary, but testing is actually compulsory.

So the MoH doesn't even understand the Health Act. I bet it was Mike Bush who drew up that pamphlet!!

I'm trying to be serious. if you feel that the management of managed isolation centres, mingling, Ombudsman, etc etc and etc, daily, are not that important I'll stop positing about Mike Bush. I personally find the centres a huge worry. FYI, about or at the time that Mike Bush retired and Andrew Coster took over, and after the farce at the border (people walking away etc) MB was tasked with controlling the managed isolation centres. Thats his baby. It is called an "All Of Govt" role. IIRC that includes the border. He runs it. With Police. Military are now evaluating and may take over. yes, I feel this is a huge issue but its second place to the two women drama which is taking prime time.

Yes MoH set test regimes, they are responsible for testing and for the protocols in the managed isolation centres (but have no control in running that function)

The voluntary pamphlet was raised on todays 43 minute video, Ill see if I can find it. Cant recall the reply.

dejadeadnz

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#2507735 18-Jun-2020 20:46

Contact/traveler staying at the same hotel as our famous tarts not tested before being flown to Christchurch

Health director general Ashley Bloomfield told media on Thursday the flights from Auckland to Christchurch did not pose a risk to those on board or the public.

“There are obviously protocols in place to make sure that the risk is managed for that flight down.”

Sure, Ashley. We believe you.

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