2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2520502 10-Jul-2020 02:24

rugrat:

dejadeadnz:

MoH warned blanket ban on compassionate exemptions from isolation is likely to be illegal

That's probably because most of us are against people getting exemptions. Even a test doesn't guarantee someone is COVID free. Otherwise you could just let everyone out after their first test if it was as simple as that.

You have an individuals rights, then you have the rights of everyone else to not have their health threatened.

I'm not saying the government isn't breaking the law, but they're doing what most people prefer them to do. People would be more outraged with people getting exemptions for things like funerals. Under level 4 people couldn't have full funerals, it was for the safely of the country.

Just look at what's happening in Australia, we need to be on the more cautious side with this. Some rights are going to have to be put on hold to protect the country.

I am wondering if they would be better not to have any exemptions at all, and remove all discretion, to remove the possibility of any legal challenges. Would also protect all NZers against the risk of COVID. The fact that some people who have been given exemptions, and have made it into the community and then tested positive, shows that it is a real risk. Some of these are going to places where they will be mingling with other people, including funerals. Funerals can be delayed etc. It is very tough, but it is the COVID world we are now living in, and we need to protect NZers and the country against this virus.

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#2520503 10-Jul-2020 03:02

dejadeadnz:
MoH warned blanket ban on compassionate exemptions from isolation is likely to be illegal

This comes from a High Court judge well-known for his legal acumen. And he's of course absolutely right. Any time a piece of legislation provides for a decision-maker with the power to exercise a genuine discretion (it doesn't mean the request must be granted, it just means that the decision-maker must approach the matter with an open mind), they must actually open their mind to the possibility of granting the request. Instead the MoH and the government have decided that they simply won't allow any exemptions because the incompetent and lawless MoH didn't implement their own guidelines of testing people before exemptions were granted. Frankly, in a liberal society it's stunning to me that there's been so little concern and outrage about this.

Nobody cares about the law until it's their protections that get violated.

Wait until boomers get pinged for going on holiday.

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#2520505 10-Jul-2020 03:23

mattwnz:

I am wondering if they would be better not to have any exemptions at all, and remove all discretion, to remove the possibility of any legal challenges. Would also protect all NZers against the risk of COVID. The fact that some people who have been given exemptions, and have made it into the community and then tested positive, shows that it is a real risk. Some of these are going to places where they will be mingling with other people, including funerals. Funerals can be delayed etc. It is very tough, but it is the COVID world we are now living in, and we need to protect NZers and the country against this virus.

You need exemptions for serious health concerns. I'm guessing they've got robust procedures for that.

The way I read the press release is they will allow funerals in future, just looks like they're working out what the procedure should be. As well as making sure the test is done. Even if they add in supervision of person outside facility it would still be an easy environment for the odd dirt bag to do a runner. Plus risk of any surfaces getting contaminated.

cshwone

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#2520507 10-Jul-2020 05:41

xlinknz:

Here is an interesting article on Al Jazeera titled "How New Zealand's media endangered public health" that I suspect Stuff and NZherald won't republish...

Thanks for posting that. It echoed many of the points that were raised in this thread as we went along.

GV27

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#2520508 10-Jul-2020 06:35

That Al Jazeera article is very much a piece of revisionist history.

We didn't initially opt for elimination - we opted to flatten the curve. We only went down the elimination route when the Oxford model showed that we would still be boned even if we flattened the curve. There are numerous other elements in there which don't cut mustard, including this:

"Clark, the country's most effective health minister in decades, tendered his resignation. "

I'm not really inclined to read too much further tbh.

tdgeek

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#2520511 10-Jul-2020 07:20

rugrat:

dejadeadnz:

MoH warned blanket ban on compassionate exemptions from isolation is likely to be illegal

This comes from a High Court judge well-known for his legal acumen. And he's of course absolutely right. Any time a piece of legislation provides for a decision-maker with the power to exercise a genuine discretion (it doesn't mean the request must be granted, it just means that the decision-maker must approach the matter with an open mind), they must actually open their mind to the possibility of granting the request. Instead the MoH and the government have decided that they simply won't allow any exemptions because the incompetent and lawless MoH didn't implement their own guidelines of testing people before exemptions were granted. Frankly, in a liberal society it's stunning to me that there's been so little concern and outrage about this.

That's probably because most of us are against people getting exemptions. Even a test doesn't guarantee someone is COVID free. Otherwise you could just let everyone out after their first test if it was as simple as that.

You have an individuals rights, then you have the rights of everyone else to not have their health threatened.

I'm not saying the government isn't breaking the law, but they're doing what most people prefer them to do. People would be more outraged with people getting exemptions for things like funerals. Under level 4 people couldn't have full funerals, it was for the safety of the country.

Just look at what's happening in Australia, we need to be on the more cautious side with this. Some rights are going to have to be put on hold to protect the country.

I agree but if the Govt is breaking the law, they are breaking the law. Easier to say they will be more strict, then just decline every one. probably more a case of show the public we mean business and didnt do due diligence. But surely they must have consulted someone?

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#2520512 10-Jul-2020 07:23

GV27:

That Al Jazeera article is very much a piece of revisionist history.

We didn't initially opt for elimination - we opted to flatten the curve. We only went down the elimination route when the Oxford model showed that we would still be boned even if we flattened the curve. There are numerous other elements in there which don't cut mustard, including this:

"Clark, the country's most effective health minister in decades, tendered his resignation. "

I'm not really inclined to read too much further tbh.

Im surprised spell check allowed that :-) Maybe it missed the "d"....

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Fred99

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#2520514 10-Jul-2020 08:17

This could be something very serious, China posturing, or HK reporters being creative, or nothing at all. From SCMP:

‘Unknown pneumonia’ deadlier than coronavirus sweeping Kazakhstan, Chinese embassy warns

The Chinese embassy in Kazakhstan has warned of a deadly “unknown pneumonia” after the former Soviet republic reported a spike in pneumonia cases since June.

“The death rate of this disease is much higher than the novel coronavirus. The country’s health departments are conducting comparative research into the pneumonia virus, but have yet to identify the virus,” the embassy said in a warning to Chinese citizens in the country.

Fred99

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#2520547 10-Jul-2020 08:59

GV27:

"Clark, the country's most effective health minister in decades, tendered his resignation. "

I'm not really inclined to read too much further tbh.

Seems like hyperbole - but the bar truly hadn't been set very high.

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#2520554 10-Jul-2020 09:07

@GV27:

That Al Jazeera article is very much a piece of revisionist history.

We didn't initially opt for elimination - we opted to flatten the curve. We only went down the elimination route when the Oxford model showed that we would still be boned even if we flattened the curve. There are numerous other elements in there which don't cut mustard, including this:

And what's wrong with that? If you are doing something and realise it's not going to work in the long term, wouldn't you change on an early stage, before it's too costly?

kingdragonfly

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#2520567 10-Jul-2020 09:31

Fred99:
This could be something very serious, China posturing, or HK reporters being creative, or nothing at all. From SCMP:

‘Unknown pneumonia’ deadlier than coronavirus sweeping Kazakhstan, Chinese embassy warns

So far not picked up by more reputable news sources. Russian RT had this note

"Chief sanitary officer, Ayzhan Esmagambetova, warned that the mortality rate from pneumonia has increased in Kazakhstan four times this June compared to the same period last year.

She pointed out that many of those sick were not diagnosed with Covid-19.

However, this could be explained by fact that the coronavirus tests often lack precision, the official added."

GV27

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#2520630 10-Jul-2020 11:11

freitasm:

And what's wrong with that? If you are doing something and realise it's not going to work in the long term, wouldn't you change on an early stage, before it's too costly?

Nothing wrong with changing your mind - more then revising history to pretend every step between then and now has been meticulously and flawlessly executed. Which it obviously hasn't.

And I get that, it's a global pandemic, life comes at you fast. But don't pretend the backflips didn't happen or that balls weren't dropped at any point.

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#2520632 10-Jul-2020 11:17

GV27:

freitasm:

And what's wrong with that? If you are doing something and realise it's not going to work in the long term, wouldn't you change on an early stage, before it's too costly?

Nothing wrong with changing your mind - more then revising history to pretend every step between then and now has been meticulously and flawlessly executed. Which it obviously hasn't.

And I get that, it's a global pandemic, life comes at you fast. But don't pretend the backflips didn't happen or that balls weren't dropped at any point.

I am happy with the small ball drops we have now and then here than living in the USA with their lack of political interesting in saving lives.

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#2520635 10-Jul-2020 11:20

mattwnz:

China for example believe they got a new outbreak from imported meat from overseas, and there were virus particles on a chopping board at a market that used to cut the meat.

I'm surprised you believe that to be a causative link (linking virus particle on chopping board to an outbreak being caused by imported salmon to be exact - i wonder where else the virus from the chopping board could have come from ... hmm)

Fred99

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#2520666 10-Jul-2020 11:54

Batman:

mattwnz:

China for example believe they got a new outbreak from imported meat from overseas, and there were virus particles on a chopping board at a market that used to cut the meat.

I'm surprised you believe that to be a causative link (linking virus particle on chopping board to an outbreak being caused by imported salmon to be exact - i wonder where else the virus from the chopping board could have come from ... hmm)

I believe China claimed that the genome of the viral RNA detected was traced to a strain not commonly found in China, but common in Europe.

It's very plausible that viral RNA - or even viable C-19 viruses - could survive for a long time on chilled or frozen food.

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