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neb

neb

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#290009 14-Oct-2021 18:03
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First of all, this is a serious question. I know that it's a topic that most people have trouble taking seriously, but I do mean the following questions seriously.

 

 

Recently ran into someone who's a huge believer in homeopathy. They're otherwise fine, not antivaxxers or anything, but just believe completely in homeopathy. So I thought I'd have a look at it from a homeopathy practitioner's point of view to see what the arguments were for it (I'm quite familiar with the arguments against it, no need to post those).

 

 

First problem was that no two people seem to be able to agree on how the preparation ritual works, some writeups say you dilute 100:1 repeatedly, some say you pour the initial compound into a container, then pour it out and refill with water repeatedly, and another one seems to involve running water over the initial substance, which would certainly make mass production for sale easier. Some practitioners also hit the side of the container, although as with the details of the dilution no-one can seem to agree how many times, how hard, or in what way you're supposed to hit it.

 

 

Anyway, taking one particular recipe which says you take the initial substance, pour it into a container, pour it out, pour in water, pour it out, etc, thirty times (hitting the sides optional - and why stop at thirty?), this would result in a final preparation containing zero molecules of the original substance.

 

 

Question 1: Since the water being used in the process contains various dissolved substances, wouldn't the final preparation contain a lot of homepathically-enhanced contaminants that have gone through the same process as the original substance?

 

 

Question 2: When I put a glass or cup in the dishwasher, the original substance gets poured out, then the dishwasher arm swings around and fills it with water, then it drains out again, etc. At the end of the dishwash process, the dishwasher has done the same thing to the glass as the homeopathic preparation process does. Why is it a homeopathic remedy when done by a person but washed dishes when the same thing is done by a dishwasher? What makes the homeopathic preparation different, since it's exactly the same process?

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Batman
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  #2795459 14-Oct-2021 18:25
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like this

 




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  #2795462 14-Oct-2021 18:26
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You assume that it is supposed to work. The only thing it's really supposed to do is separate a fool from his money!


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  #2795468 14-Oct-2021 18:30
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Ironically, everything you've just posted from a practitioner's point view for Homeopathy, has simply proved the opposite. For an active ingredient to be effective, it needs to be present at a level that the body can metabolise and convert into something useful. Homeopathic remedies simply don't contain enough of anything to be more effective than a glass of water.




lxsw20
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  #2795469 14-Oct-2021 18:30
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Its not /thread


gzt

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  #2795492 14-Oct-2021 19:07
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How is homeopathy supposed to work?

Other than what you have already explained, the theory vague idea behind it is 'like cures like'. As you point out it's basically harmless and that's the strongest selling point.

From time to time some hapless manufacturer overdoes the concentration by billions and poisons someone. Hardly ever happens.

Btw, it's sometimes tinctured with alcohol.

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  #2795496 14-Oct-2021 19:13
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@Batman That is awesome made me LOL 💯


 
 
 

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

neb

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  #2795503 14-Oct-2021 19:15
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Linux:

@Batman That is awesome made me LOL 💯

 

 

Mitchell and Webb are great. They also have a video about lifestyle nutritionists.

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  #2795513 14-Oct-2021 19:36
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Short answer: it doesn’t. How something that is repeatedly watered down is made more potent the more it gets watered down is absurd. By that logic river, lake or sea water must be the most potent medicine in the world because at some point it has come into contact with every other substance on this planet.

 

I will never forget talking to a medical oncologist (chemo Dr) and they said that a lot of Drs are OK with homeopathy, because it is water and does absolutely nothing.

 

 

 

sorry, doesn’t help with your question though


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  #2795519 14-Oct-2021 19:53
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Makes sense. I know some folks who are into ritual magick, with a 'k', who explained to me that they're not claiming to do any kind of magic (without a 'k'), it's just a way of focusing the mind towards achieving a goal, e.g. doing better at work, or dealing with chronic pain. Since homeopathy was explained to me as a means of getting the body to heal itself, the whole thing seems quite similar to ritual magic both in the process and in the mechanism of action.

Rikkitic
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  #2795529 14-Oct-2021 20:07
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Some people believe in prayer and some research seems to suggest it can have an effect (no citations, i just remember that from previous reading).

 

I do not believe that homeopathy works in any physical sense, but I don't disbelieve that it could have a real placebo effect on someone who does believe in it. Things aren't always as simple as they seem. 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


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  #2795554 14-Oct-2021 20:25
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The original post with the description of how it's done sort of reminds me about how do you cook a Pukeko? Answer, you put a stone in the pot with the Pukeko and when the stone is done you throw away the Pukeko and eat the stone.





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  #2795560 14-Oct-2021 20:32
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Rikkitic:

 

Some people believe in prayer and some research seems to suggest it can have an effect (no citations, i just remember that from previous reading).

 

I do not believe that homeopathy works in any physical sense, but I don't disbelieve that it could have a real placebo effect on someone who does believe in it. Things aren't always as simple as they seem. 

 

 

 

 

I believe for some people and for some ailments it can work. First and foremost the person using it has to fervently believe it can work. When you hear of the "powers" of Witch Doctors you have to wonder that there isn't some substance to this sort of stuff. The mind is a powerful thing.





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gzt

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  #2795570 14-Oct-2021 20:45
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Rikkitic: it could have a real placebo effect on someone who does believe in it. Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

Many years ago I visited a trendy homeopath recommended by a friend. It was a very pleasant experience. No doubt that is helpful to many people. Have a nice chat about whatever the issue is and leave with a prescription knowing you'll come back in a week or two for another consultation.

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  #2795589 14-Oct-2021 21:06
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Homeopathy, basically placebo effect. 

 

But also, sometimes people were healing naturally already so its just a co-incidence.
Of course the treatment might take a long time so upping the chance you get better on your own or...

 

Problem is when this becomes the first and only treatment for someone with a real progressive condition.
This can cause significant harm as they don't get treated.

 

There are also extensions that claim to treat viruses and such which is dangerous.
Once you are in, the rabbit hole keeps branching and getting deeper.

 

It can also ferment a complete mistrust of medical system beyond the normal level of getting a second opinion, etc.

 

Hopefully Pharmacies which in this country carry a certain level of trust are never allowed to sell them.


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  #2795601 14-Oct-2021 21:42
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ezbee:

But also, sometimes people were healing naturally already so its just a co-incidence.

 

 

Sure, and like many other faith-based techniques it's used primarily to deal with two types of issues, afflictions that fix themselves (more than half of all conditions that people seek treatment for are self-limiting, meaning they fix themselves) and chronic conditions that flare up occasionally and then drop back to their default state, which means anything you do appears to work. That is, when you get a flare-up you go for treatment, the flare-up subsides and so the treatment was "successful".

 

 

In terms of the first case, most medical conditions improve by themselves, are self-limiting as above, or even if fatal seldom follow a strict downward spiral. In each case any kind of intervention can be effective, and it's best to apply the treatment when the patient is getting worse:

 

 

* If they improve, you take credit.

 

* If they remain stable, you've stopped the downward spiral.

 

* If they get worse, the ritual was performed incorrectly (by the patient, not the practitioner).

 

 

Unfortunately none of this is helping explain the mechanism of action for homeopathic remedies, or why a dishwasher doesn't create a load of them every time it's run...

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