EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2058408 18-Jul-2018 17:11

wellygary:

And.. wait for it, hot off the press here is the Govt EV announcement..... and .... it ...is .....

a back end database....

Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter today launched EVRoam, a new initiative providing electric car drivers with real-time information about where they can find reliable charging stations right around the country.EVRoam is a live database, collated by the NZ Transport Agency from real-time data fed directly from charging station operators such as Chargenet and Vector. EVRoam then shares this information out as widely as possible, to dozens of other websites and apps, so that drivers can receive reliable data on charging stations through all channels.

“This is about giving people the practical tools to confidently drive an electric car right around the country and know they have the power to go the distance,” said Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter.

“EVRoam lets drivers know if a charging station is active and able to be used, which means they can confidently plan their journeys.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1807/S00147/govt-helping-electric-vehicle-drivers-to-roam-free.htm

So, you're on the road. Things are running late, as they are wont to do from time to time. You get on your phone on the new database and - joy of great joys - you find two charging points in the village you are about to head through, the only one you can reach on what is left in your EV.

Jubilant, you arrive. To find two vehicles plugged in and 3 more queuing for the points after they have finished. You're going to be late for that meeting with the new client...possibly even a whole business day late!

Your competitor arrives at the office of the new client in his ICEV, having waved at you as you sit aimlessly in the queue waiting hours to get a charge. He bags the account.

It seems to me that the EV scenario still has too many potential downsides for use outside an urban only scenario. The only answer - unless someone invents a way of charging a 500km capable battery in 5 minutes - is surely cartridge batteries, where you pull in and the empty battery is slid out, a charged one slid in and off you go.

Linuxluver

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#2058411 18-Jul-2018 17:23

GV27:
So not only are the running costs subsidized, but the purchase price too? Great for everyone who can drop the cash on an EV that fits in with their lifestyle, bad news for everyone else underwriting it.

I ate with you if it weren't for climate change. That's the element people like yourself tend to consistently lose sight of.

We need to stop burning focus fuels. The *fastest* way to do that is make alternatives accessible to more people. Your already taking about people who are voting new cars, so that's where you start. It makes sense.

Or... We just but everyone who wants one an EV. Whatever their income. They gets rid of the "rich people buy new cars" rubbish.

The whole point of purchase incentives is to make EVs accessible to more not-rich people. For how long? Only until economies of scale results in EVs being cheaper than ICE. At that point, there is no need to bridge the price has because there would be no gaps.

But the goal here they can't be lost sight of is the over riding need to reduce carbon emissions. That's WHY were in a hurry.

The latest science says climate change is not only real, but accelerating. That has to stop.

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Linuxluver

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#2058412 18-Jul-2018 17:23

GV27:
So not only are the running costs subsidized, but the purchase price too? Great for everyone who can drop the cash on an EV that fits in with their lifestyle, bad news for everyone else underwriting it.

I'd agree with you if it weren't for climate change. That's the element people like yourself tend to consistently lose sight of.

We need to stop burning fossil fuels. The *fastest* way to do that is make alternatives accessible to more people. We're already talking about people who are buy new cars, so that's where you start. It makes sense.

Or... We just buy everyone who wants one an EV. Whatever their income. That gets rid of the "rich people buy new cars" rubbish.

The whole point of purchase incentives is to make EVs accessible to more not-rich people. For how long? Only until economies of scale results in EVs being cheaper than ICE. At that point, there is no need to bridge the price gap because there would be no gap.

But the goal here that can't be lost sight of is the overriding need to reduce carbon emissions. That's WHY we're in a hurry.

The latest science says climate change is not only real, but accelerating. That has to stop.

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tdgeek

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#2058437 18-Jul-2018 19:02

Linuxluver:
GV27:

So not only are the running costs subsidized, but the purchase price too? Great for everyone who can drop the cash on an EV that fits in with their lifestyle, bad news for everyone else underwriting it.

I ate with you if it weren't for climate change. That's the element people like yourself tend to consistently lose sight of.

We need to stop burning focus fuels. The *fastest* way to do that is make alternatives accessible to more people. Your already taking about people who are voting new cars, so that's where you start. It makes sense.

Or... We just but everyone who wants one an EV. Whatever their income. They gets rid of the "rich people buy new cars" rubbish.

The whole point of purchase incentives is to make EVs accessible to more not-rich people. For how long? Only until economies of scale results in EVs being cheaper than ICE. At that point, there is no need to bridge the price has because there would be no gaps.

But the goal here they can't be lost sight of is the over riding need to reduce carbon emissions. That's WHY were in a hurry.

The latest science says climate change is not only real, but accelerating. That has to stop.

Transition. Its always the same when its new. EV's continue to ramp up, no doubt in a Bell Curve way. Pre owned will become common in a few short years. 7 bucks to fill it up on a night rate, part of it free if you have solar, repairs become just tyres and a few minor bits as you have reduced the moving parts by close to 2000 of them.

Bell Curve. This thread will be reversed in time. ICE Cars - General News.

GV27

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#2058441 18-Jul-2018 19:12

Linuxluver:
GV27:

So not only are the running costs subsidized, but the purchase price too? Great for everyone who can drop the cash on an EV that fits in with their lifestyle, bad news for everyone else underwriting it.

I'd agree with you if it weren't for climate change. That's the element people like yourself tend to consistently lose sight of.

We need to stop burning fossil fuels. The *fastest* way to do that is make alternatives accessible to more people. We're already talking about people who are buy new cars, so that's where you start. It makes sense.

Or... We just buy everyone who wants one an EV. Whatever their income. That gets rid of the "rich people buy new cars" rubbish.

The whole point of purchase incentives is to make EVs accessible to more not-rich people. For how long? Only until economies of scale results in EVs being cheaper than ICE. At that point, there is no need to bridge the price gap because there would be no gap.

But the goal here that can't be lost sight of is the overriding need to reduce carbon emissions. That's WHY we're in a hurry.

The latest science says climate change is not only real, but accelerating. That has to stop.

Then use that money to fast-track PT projects that people can use regardless of their income, or increase subsidies for PT so it's more affordable. Giving money to people buying new cars while those on the breadline are paying ever-increasing fuel taxes is a massive injustice.

If the aim is to stop reduce emissions, then this has to be the most effective and equitable method of doing it.

MarkH67

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#2058444 18-Jul-2018 19:28

Geektastic:

The only answer - unless someone invents a way of charging a 500km capable battery in 5 minutes - is surely cartridge batteries, where you pull in and the empty battery is slid out, a charged one slid in and off you go.

Rubbish!

There is another very simple answer - all you need is an EV with enough range to see out any day of travelling, such a vehicle would only need to be charged overnight.

Tesla has announced an upcoming EV with 1,000km range. Sure, it is crazy expensive, but over time there will be improvements to battery technology and we will get affordable cars with 1,000km range eventually. With the normal mix of speed zones a car will go through, 1,000km is probably around 14 hours of driving, much more in a congested city - that would be an entire day's use for almost anyone. Once an affordable car can drive all day without ever needing to stop for a charge (except for overnight) then the fossil fuel burners will be deader than the dodo.

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#2058484 18-Jul-2018 21:59

MarkH67:

Geektastic:

The only answer - unless someone invents a way of charging a 500km capable battery in 5 minutes - is surely cartridge batteries, where you pull in and the empty battery is slid out, a charged one slid in and off you go.

Rubbish!

There is another very simple answer - all you need is an EV with enough range to see out any day of travelling, such a vehicle would only need to be charged overnight.

Tesla has announced an upcoming EV with 1,000km range. Sure, it is crazy expensive, but over time there will be improvements to battery technology and we will get affordable cars with 1,000km range eventually. With the normal mix of speed zones a car will go through, 1,000km is probably around 14 hours of driving, much more in a congested city - that would be an entire day's use for almost anyone. Once an affordable car can drive all day without ever needing to stop for a charge (except for overnight) then the fossil fuel burners will be deader than the dodo.

Does that include in sub zero temperatures, with heated glass in use, windscreen wipers and so forth? Can a battery of that capacity genuinely be charged in one night from flat using power facilities most people would have at home? I have torch batteries that take that long to charge...How long will it be before the man on the Clapham Omnibus can afford one? 10 years? 20 years?

Cassette batteries replaced in minutes like a fuel stop would mean that the batteries could be charged at whatever speed was required, in a specialist facility. Granted it would require car makers to use standard batteries, but they manage to use standard fuel now.

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#2058486 18-Jul-2018 22:07

Geektastic:

Granted it would require car makers to use standard batteries, but they manage to use standard fuel now.

It's been tried, but it doesn't work very well. The difference between standard batteries and standard fuel is that cars are all different shapes and sizes. That doesn't matter to the liquid that goes into your fuel tank, but it makes a big difference in battery design and placement. As a result, although you might have a standard battery cell or module, it is difficult to engineer a standard battery pack.

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plod

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#2058512 18-Jul-2018 22:31

My life is far to unorganised to make an EV work for me. Will be looking at hybrids when the time comes I think

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#2058518 18-Jul-2018 22:54

plod: My life is far to unorganised to make an EV work for me. Will be looking at hybrids when the time comes I think

Just got rid of ours in PX for a Volvo diesel.

The a/c compressor needed replacing. $3,500 + GST and fitting...! It's a special part due to the hybrid engine. I even tried Japan direct, as I am going there later in the year - still US$1500. Had a headlight go on it - that was not far off the same money, but that was under warranty fortunately.

The windscreen went and was replaced with a Chinese one despite my protestations. The insurers would not pay to import the correct one from Japan, which was lighter in weight, specially heat reflective (so the a/c did not have to work so hard) and so on.

The diesel, to cap it all, returns better MPG...!

Aredwood

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#2058536 19-Jul-2018 02:00

SaltyNZ:
GV27:

Have you every wondered why there's so many Swifts on the market at around $7K and Nissan Leafs are priced around $15K and up? It could do with the amount of money most normal people have to spend on a car when they go to buy one.

Meanwhile, those people keep paying fuel taxes and RUC and people who have the means and lifestyle to make electric cars work for them get...another hand-out.

As someone who drove a $7000 Swift until it died after 18 years and 320,000km and only then replaced it with a Leaf, no, I have not wondered that. I'm completely aware of the economics. That is the entire point of a rebate scheme: to turn that around so that now the $7,000 Swift is $7,500, and the $15,000 EV is $7,000. Do you also wonder how unfair it is that the burden of tobacco taxes seem to land squarely on the shoulders of smokers and nobody else?

And as far as 'lifestyle' goes, I have a 55km each way daily commute, and I can still make an EV "work for me". Even the early-days ones that are currently on the market, let alone the ones with 400km range coming in the next couple of years. And for the times that the Leaf does not "work for me" I still have our other car - a Pajero, which is also 18 years old and has 300,000km on it because I can't afford to replace it with anything better either. I assure you, I'm not god. If I were, I wouldn't be buying a second-hand Leaf.

Tobacco taxes are not a good comparison. As the goal is to reduce smoking to zero. Which is achievable, as no one has to smoke tobacco to stay alive. In weighing up wether to implement a "sin" tax, or a subsidy. The tax or subsidy should be designed to have the biggest impact on those who can change for the lowest cost. With tobacco, the people who can make the biggest change are those who smoke. So tobacco taxes are therefore perfectly targeted.

The RUC exemption for electric vehicles is another good example of a well targeted incentive. As those who drive the most will get the biggest saving.

With EVs, there are a large group of people who can't get an EV, simply because their use case cannot be met by any currently available EVs. Forcing this group of people to pay more to use their ICE vehicles. Or offering them a subsidy to buy an EV. Won't increase EV ownership rates for that group.

Then there is the group who would buy EVs, but won't. Solely due to cost. One way around this, is a purchase price subsidy. But that is inefficient, as it doesn't allow for how much the EV will get used. Or the ability of the buyer to pay for it. And is also at risk of being rorted by car dealers charging more for EVs, knowing that there is a subsidy available. Example- when the Tesla Model 3 gets released for sale in NZ. Those who have already pre ordered will still probably be willing to pay full price. So Tesla has no incentive to pass on any subsidies to those people. Only when all pre orders have been fulfilled, will Tesla have an incentive to lower prices as a means of getting more sales.

Far better, is a subsidy on the interest costs of any loan to buy an EV. As it will give the biggest help to those who can't get an EV due to not being able to afford repayments on a more expensive EV compared to an ICE car. Or who won't buy an EV due to the use of money costs eating up all of the running cost savings. And it is fairer to poor people. As it does more to help even out their purchasing power compared to rich people.

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#2058538 19-Jul-2018 05:49

Interesting development:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/07/20180718-nmc.html

Seems like the kind of thing that a good BMS could be programmed to do at regular intervals.

plod

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#2058545 19-Jul-2018 07:04

Geektastic:
plod: My life is far to unorganised to make an EV work for me. Will be looking at hybrids when the time comes I think

Just got rid of ours in PX for a Volvo diesel.

The a/c compressor needed replacing. $3,500 + GST and fitting...! It's a special part due to the hybrid engine. I even tried Japan direct, as I am going there later in the year - still US$1500. Had a headlight go on it - that was not far off the same money, but that was under warranty fortunately.

The windscreen went and was replaced with a Chinese one despite my protestations. The insurers would not pay to import the correct one from Japan, which was lighter in weight, specially heat reflective (so the a/c did not have to work so hard) and so on.

The diesel, to cap it all, returns better MPG...!

What did you have?

tdgeek

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#2058551 19-Jul-2018 07:20

Aredwood:

Far better, is a subsidy on the interest costs of any loan to buy an EV. As it will give the biggest help to those who can't get an EV due to not being able to afford repayments on a more expensive EV compared to an ICE car. Or who won't buy an EV due to the use of money costs eating up all of the running cost savings. And it is fairer to poor people. As it does more to help even out their purchasing power compared to rich people.

Good idea.

I'd also look at a hefty interest free loan, say 10k, payable at $50 per week over 4 years. Fuel savings would be more for most people, so they can get a saving now and have a new car which is still more expensive than the ICE equivalent but not by too much. Also give a 10k grant for a pre owned EV to target the 10k buyers who can get a pre owned EV for not much more than the pre owned ICE.

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#2058645 19-Jul-2018 09:47

Linuxluver:

The whole point of purchase incentives is to make EVs accessible to more not-rich people. For how long? Only until economies of scale results in EVs being cheaper than ICE. At that point, there is no need to bridge the price gap because there would be no gap.

At the moment subsidies in overseas jurisdictions are simply going straight to manufacturers bottom lines and allowing the price to be held higher than it would have to be if the market was left to do it's thing.

There should come a point where EVs (without subsidies) are cheaper than ICEVs - this will be when EV manufacturers who also make ICEVs want them to be cheaper -0 because they are switching light vehicle production to preponderantly EVs. Or when Tesla gets its production really humming .... currently building some of their cars in a tent (https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-assembly-line-tent/)

When EV cars are cheaper than ICEVs they could be expected to rapidly make up >50% of new light vehicle purchases in NZ.

At that point though, it will be politically difficult for government to make EVs pay RUC and to remove any subsidies. That's not unique to EVs, it's a consistent problem with subsidies.

In the diesel space vehicles up to 3.5T pay the same charges. That is the sort of charge regime that would need to be applied to EVs, to fund roading.

Mike

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