Nissan LEAF - General

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#1950822 2-Feb-2018 17:24

kryptonjohn:

Indeed. It's the perennial problem with politicians picking winners. They're a) not qualified and b) beholden to their own special interest groups rather than the country as a whole.

Sure, and then when qualified people go into politics, do you then complain 'Oh, of course they'd say that, they used to work for XYZ!'? That's what we call 'regulatory capture,' or 'revolving door'. Professional politicians are not experts in the field of their responsibility as a general rule, which is why they don't work in a vacuum. The 'government' is not just Jacinda Ardern and a dozen of her closest friends: there is a whole organisation of bureaucrats who are experts, and they advise the ministers. The ministers make the final decisions, sure, but every step of the way they have access to all the actual expert opinions they could ask for.

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frednz

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#1951044 3-Feb-2018 10:06

frednz:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/97198599/electric-vehicles-can-we-become-the-norway-of-the-southern-hemisphere

Here's a quote from the above article which explains why EV purchases should be subsidised by taxpayers' money:

There's a lesson to be learned in all of this for New Zealand. Statistics and surveys show that the Norwegian acceptance of EVs is not necessarily for environmental reasons - but economics. Norway's government offers generous subsidies for EVs (and imposes restrictions on the use of conventional vehicles), and that's primarily why the locals buy the cars.

All this means the key to mass acceptance of new EVs is for the Government to stump with financial incentives.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/taxi-drivers-to-get-7-000-grant-for-switching-to-electric-cars-1.3374249

A similar conclusion has been reached in Ireland where the EV uptake has been very small, that is, the Government can't expect the EV market to take off unless it provides generous subsidies.

Fred99

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#1951083 3-Feb-2018 13:04

Generous subsidies of course possible in Norway - where they earn masses of revenue from being one of the world's largest exporters of oil, gas, and condensate. At least when they catch whales, they eat them at home.

frednz

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#1951090 3-Feb-2018 13:24

Below is an extract from an advertisement on Trade Me for a 30kWh 2016 Nissan Leaf which has done 19,800km and is on at $30,375:

"THIS VEHICLE IS CURRENTLY IN TRANSIT FROM JAPAN AND WILL BE ARRIVING EARLY APRIL.

BUY NOW AND SAVE, THIS VEHICLE WILL HAVE A RETAIL PRICE OF 31875 WHEN IT IS ON OUR YARD FOR SALE.

PURCHASE A CAR FROM US BEFORE IT ARRIVES IN THE COUNTRY AND SAVE $1500
All purchases made are subject to the vehicle being as described and a test drive on arrival of the vehicle. We are also happy for you to organise an independent mechanical inspection.

Secure a great deal now with a $2,000 refundable deposit with the balance payable on delivery, buy with confidence from a multi award winning MTA dealership and SAVE.

What do you think of this type of advertising, that is, if you buy the vehicle before it arrives in the yard in NZ, you will save $1,500?

Would you be prepared to pay a "refundable deposit" of $2,000 in advance of seeing the car, to save $1,500 on the price? I wonder whether there may be arguments over when the refundable deposit may in fact be refunded?

Dulouz

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#1951156 3-Feb-2018 15:20

frednz:

Below is an extract from an advertisement on Trade Me for a 30kWh 2016 Nissan Leaf which has done 19,800km and is on at $30,375:

"THIS VEHICLE IS CURRENTLY IN TRANSIT FROM JAPAN AND WILL BE ARRIVING EARLY APRIL.

BUY NOW AND SAVE, THIS VEHICLE WILL HAVE A RETAIL PRICE OF 31875 WHEN IT IS ON OUR YARD FOR SALE.

PURCHASE A CAR FROM US BEFORE IT ARRIVES IN THE COUNTRY AND SAVE $1500
All purchases made are subject to the vehicle being as described and a test drive on arrival of the vehicle. We are also happy for you to organise an independent mechanical inspection.

Secure a great deal now with a $2,000 refundable deposit with the balance payable on delivery, buy with confidence from a multi award winning MTA dealership and SAVE.

What do you think of this type of advertising, that is, if you buy the vehicle before it arrives in the yard in NZ, you will save $1,500?

Would you be prepared to pay a "refundable deposit" of $2,000 in advance of seeing the car, to save $1,500 on the price? I wonder whether there may be arguments over when the refundable deposit may in fact be refunded?

I've just done exactly this. When the car arrives I can decide not to purchase it if it fails to meet my satisfaction. The deposit was paid by CC and I believe the CC company will back me up if I decide not to go ahead and the company gives me grief over the refund.

Amanon

frednz

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#1951187 3-Feb-2018 17:37

Dulouz:

frednz:

Below is an extract from an advertisement on Trade Me for a 30kWh 2016 Nissan Leaf which has done 19,800km and is on at $30,375:

"THIS VEHICLE IS CURRENTLY IN TRANSIT FROM JAPAN AND WILL BE ARRIVING EARLY APRIL.

BUY NOW AND SAVE, THIS VEHICLE WILL HAVE A RETAIL PRICE OF 31875 WHEN IT IS ON OUR YARD FOR SALE.

PURCHASE A CAR FROM US BEFORE IT ARRIVES IN THE COUNTRY AND SAVE $1500
All purchases made are subject to the vehicle being as described and a test drive on arrival of the vehicle. We are also happy for you to organise an independent mechanical inspection.

Secure a great deal now with a $2,000 refundable deposit with the balance payable on delivery, buy with confidence from a multi award winning MTA dealership and SAVE.

What do you think of this type of advertising, that is, if you buy the vehicle before it arrives in the yard in NZ, you will save $1,500?

Would you be prepared to pay a "refundable deposit" of $2,000 in advance of seeing the car, to save $1,500 on the price? I wonder whether there may be arguments over when the refundable deposit may in fact be refunded?

I've just done exactly this. When the car arrives I can decide not to purchase it if it fails to meet my satisfaction. The deposit was paid by CC and I believe the CC company will back me up if I decide not to go ahead and the company gives me grief over the refund.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I guess if you paid a deposit using a credit card, you might be able to get the backing of the credit card company in certain circumstances, but I guess this would depend on the terms of any agreement you signed with the car dealer.

I suppose you can't just change your mind and decide not to buy the car if it arrives exactly as described in the advertisement and if a test drive and mechanical inspection confirms there is nothing wrong with it. In other words, there probably would be circumstances in which the dealer would be within their rights not to repay your deposit if you try to pull out of the deal.

I suppose I'm used to just buying a vehicle when it's actually on the yard and then trying to negotiate a discounted price, rather than paying a deposit well in advance of the arrival date just to secure the discount.

It seems that, these days, dealers advertise many vehicles on Trade Me well in advance of their arrival date and that they do encourage buyers to commit to a vehicle before it arrives in the country.

Dulouz

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#1951189 3-Feb-2018 17:41

frednz:

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I guess if you paid a deposit using a credit card, you might be able to get the backing of the credit card company in certain circumstances, but I guess this would depend on the terms of any agreement you signed with the car dealer.

I suppose you can't just change your mind and decide not to buy the car if it arrives exactly as described in the advertisement and if a test drive and mechanical inspection confirms there is nothing wrong with it. In other words, there probably would be circumstances in which the dealer would be within their rights not to repay your deposit if you try to pull out of the deal.

I suppose I'm used to just buying a vehicle when it's actually on the yard and then trying to negotiate a discounted price, rather than paying a deposit well in advance of the arrival date just to secure the discount.

It seems that, these days, dealers advertise many vehicles on Trade Me well in advance of their arrival date and that they do encourage buyers to commit to a vehicle before it arrives in the country.

I can change my mind. The deposit gives me first right of refusal

Amanon

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Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

gehenna

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#1951233 3-Feb-2018 20:03

You don't need to quote if the reply is immediately before yours. If you want to catch the attention of the poster, include their username @dulouz

Dulouz

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#1951234 3-Feb-2018 20:05

Got it @gehenna

Amanon

RUKI

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#1951648 5-Feb-2018 00:02

Was in Western Springs in Auckland today and stopped at Harwood Cars for a chat. Their yard was packed with Leafs ~40 cars to choose from, with 1/2 I think having 30kWh batteries. Dealer said they are no longer buying ICE cars and the last 6 ICE cars have to go quickly as more Leafs are on the way. I've noticed prices for those few ICE cars were as low as $5999. Could be a bargain for some...

Point being - the dealer who was selling ICE cars for 40+ years is fully convinced the EVs are reality...

Most dealers in my neighborhood - Greenlane are not up to speed (only Hyundai have 1xIoniq EV on display) and those second hand car dealers are still not getting into EVs.

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Linuxluver

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#1952562 6-Feb-2018 18:39

shk292:

No, I'm an engineer who is sometimes responsible for spending significant sums of taxpayer money and I'm used to doing this based on reasoned business cases, not on feel-good hunches.

And you're the second person who has argued against a point that I very clearly didn't make. I did not claim CC was not happening, or that it wasn't a problem, or that we shouldn't spend money on it. I'm simply saying that if the money available to spend on it is finite, then we should ensure we spend it in the best way possible. And I'm far from convinced that this is by subsidising people to buy EVs.

I'll leave it at that. Please no-one else imply I'm denying climate change or the need to do something about it. But the next time someone argues that EV purchases should be subsidised by taxpayers' money, please provide a reason why

The goal is to reduce emissions of CO2 (and methane).

It definitely is easier to replace emitting vehicles with non-emitting vehicles than it is to prevent cows and sheep from expelling carbon and methane. :-)

But.....NZ isn't a wealthy country (in terms of money in people's pockets) and can't roll over the fleet overnight, even if the cars were there and ready to go.

As has happened in many cases in the past, when a BIG job needs doing (and there is no short term profit in it) the only organisation capable of doing it is government. There can't be any real debate about that. The record is very clear...and not just in NZ but also in Canada, Australia and even the US.....as it was the government who went to the Moon, not IBM. But that's another scale entirely.

So what about the money? Well, the last government rather imprudently cut taxes as we experienced the "rainy day" the previous Finance Minister, Michael Cullen had warned about before 2009. National is hopeless in that regard. Completely unable to assess risk or be prudent. They've shown that over and over, too.

OK then....so we need to increase taxes on people and organisations currently evading them. They are some of the biggest earners and take a huge benefit from the NZ economy while contributing close to nothing. Looking at you, Google and Facebook and many others.

But really.....NZ has its own sovereign currency. We can make as much of it as we like. Too much and we risk hyper inflation. Not enough and we choke off investment. One thing we do know, if there is a war we print all the money we need and then some.

Climate change is kind of a big deal. It should be accorded "war" status. Let's invest in making our own electric infrastructure. We only run into trouble when we have to buy things overseas with other currencies. If we do as much as we can at home, then we pay for it with our own money.

My eyes were really opened wide in 2003 and then 2008.

In 2003, Bush decided to invade Iraq and basically blew $7 trillion of unplanned expenditure down the plughole in the remainder of his term and into Obama's.

NO problem with money there.

Then in 2008, the global financial crash threatened the banking system.....and suddenly there was literally trillions of dollars to bail out bankers everywhere. Completely unplanned expenditure funded by literally printing money.

So it's pretty obvious. Money isn't the problem. We can make as much of the stuff as we need. The problem is who gets it.

Ordinary people aren't allowed to get it. It has to go to warmongers and banksters. Then it's OK.

Let's change that. Buy everyone a Tesla. The $8 billion National spent on roads could purchase 80,000 Model S cars.....assuming no discount.

Better yet, let's hold a design competition for a locally made EV with 400km range that would be the NZ "Model T" of electric cars / utes. The winner would need to use as few imported materials as possible. The government would back it's manufacture locally. Maybe we would export it, but if we ignored overseas patents locally it might better not to. Patents just block innovation anyway. They've become corrupt.

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SaltyNZ

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#1952564 6-Feb-2018 18:50

Linuxluver:

As has happened in many cases in the past, when a BIG job needs doing (and there is no short term profit in it) the only organisation capable of doing it is government.

This cannot be emphasised enough. Governments do the things that don't make short term money, to pave the way for everyone else. Who is doing the national fibre project? The government. Yes, it could have happened without them - but without them, it would take another 50 years to get to this point. The government went to the moon - and now there are three private companies that can send you to orbit. Eventually, "electric cars" will just be "cars". But to get the ball rolling, we need a publicly funded push.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

shk292

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#1952642 6-Feb-2018 20:40

Linuxluver:

.NZ isn't a wealthy country...

I've edited out the parts of your post I disagree with ;)

I'm not going to turn this into a political argument and I admire your passion for EVs and disruptive technology

Aredwood

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#1952686 6-Feb-2018 22:54

Linuxluver:

The goal is to reduce emissions of CO2 (and methane).

It definitely is easier to replace emitting vehicles with non-emitting vehicles than it is to prevent cows and sheep from expelling carbon and methane. :-)

But.....NZ isn't a wealthy country (in terms of money in people's pockets) and can't roll over the fleet overnight, even if the cars were there and ready to go.

As has happened in many cases in the past, when a BIG job needs doing (and there is no short term profit in it) the only organisation capable of doing it is government. There can't be any real debate about that. The record is very clear...and not just in NZ but also in Canada, Australia and even the US.....as it was the government who went to the Moon, not IBM. But that's another scale entirely.

So what about the money? Well, the last government rather imprudently cut taxes as we experienced the "rainy day" the previous Finance Minister, Michael Cullen had warned about before 2009. National is hopeless in that regard. Completely unable to assess risk or be prudent. They've shown that over and over, too.

OK then....so we need to increase taxes on people and organisations currently evading them. They are some of the biggest earners and take a huge benefit from the NZ economy while contributing close to nothing. Looking at you, Google and Facebook and many others.

But really.....NZ has its own sovereign currency. We can make as much of it as we like. Too much and we risk hyper inflation. Not enough and we choke off investment. One thing we do know, if there is a war we print all the money we need and then some.

Climate change is kind of a big deal. It should be accorded "war" status. Let's invest in making our own electric infrastructure. We only run into trouble when we have to buy things overseas with other currencies. If we do as much as we can at home, then we pay for it with our own money.

My eyes were really opened wide in 2003 and then 2008.

In 2003, Bush decided to invade Iraq and basically blew $7 trillion of unplanned expenditure down the plughole in the remainder of his term and into Obama's.

NO problem with money there.

Then in 2008, the global financial crash threatened the banking system.....and suddenly there was literally trillions of dollars to bail out bankers everywhere. Completely unplanned expenditure funded by literally printing money.

So it's pretty obvious. Money isn't the problem. We can make as much of the stuff as we need. The problem is who gets it.

Ordinary people aren't allowed to get it. It has to go to warmongers and banksters. Then it's OK.

Let's change that. Buy everyone a Tesla. The $8 billion National spent on roads could purchase 80,000 Model S cars.....assuming no discount.

Better yet, let's hold a design competition for a locally made EV with 400km range that would be the NZ "Model T" of electric cars / utes. The winner would need to use as few imported materials as possible. The government would back it's manufacture locally. Maybe we would export it, but if we ignored overseas patents locally it might better not to. Patents just block innovation anyway. They've become corrupt.

Sorry but any kind of local car manufacturing is never going to happen in NZ. Previous car manufacturing (in reality assembling cars manufactured elsewhere) Only happened due to high tariffs on imported cars. If you want to make your own EV, the motors, controllers, batteries etc are all available off the shelf. Companies such as http://www.metricmind.com/ will happily sell what you need. But it is unlikely that you could build an EV with more range than a Nissan Leaf, for less than the cost of just buying a Leaf.

And we would be up against countries such as China and Thailand, with far lower wages than NZ. And in the case of China, they can do the entire process entirely within their own country. Right from mining the raw materials, making the semiconductors, forging the various metal parts, moulding the plastic parts, right through to final assembly. There is no way NZ could create the same end to end industry, and do it cheaper than China.

As for the USA, they have a financing advantage due to issuing the worlds reserve currency.

And by far the cheapest way of reducing carbon emissions - Get rid of the silly electricity low user regulations. As they make retail electricity prices more expensive than fossil fuels. I can buy LPG for 16.4c per KW/Hr Inc GST. Show me a power company in Auckland that sells electricity for cheaper than that on a low user plan. Even some of the standard user plans are more expensive than that.

And outside of Auckland, the price gap is often alot larger. Due to lines companies having to cover a larger area, with lower population, and lower average incomes to pay for that electricity.

PhantomNVD

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#1952703 7-Feb-2018 00:13

And by far the cheapest way of reducing carbon emissions - Get rid of the silly electricity low user regulatio

@aredwood please explain how this works to affect the process?

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