Nissan LEAF - General

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#1961556 21-Feb-2018 13:53

Fred99:

Based on "current registrations" the beneficial environmental impact of EVs is also tiny. Yes it is.

Yes, it is. My point was not it was currently huge, but that it offsets against the also tiny loss in revenue from RUC - which is in any case only temporary, whereas the reduced environmental impact will be permanent.

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PhantomNVD

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#1961562 21-Feb-2018 14:08

numberonekiwi:
Although only partially related to the LEAF with RUC charges I am undecided if after 2021 the government introduce RUCs on light electric or not but not at the current rate for Diesel cars. It would be a much fairer system of having it weight based @ 1¢ per tonne / Km which would put the current LEAFS around $150 / 10,000KM instead of the $600 Diesels pay now.

I believe the NZTA stance on this is that the impact on roads by vehicles under 3.5tonnes is very similar (ie negligible) so charging by weight would still keep all vehicles 0-3.5 Tonnes in the same RUC band anyway?

tripper1000

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#1961579 21-Feb-2018 14:29

PhantomNVD:
I believe the NZTA stance on this is that the impact on roads by vehicles under 3.5tonnes is very similar (ie negligible) so charging by weight would still keep all vehicles 0-3.5 Tonnes in the same RUC band anyway?

AA disagree. {LINK} The present system already disadvantages fossil fuelled vehicles under 3 tonnes. Nissan Leafs are going to subsidising Kenworth's and Mack's after 2021 - doesn't seem right.

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#1961709 21-Feb-2018 16:48

And in the same article it also says

users of petrol vehicles pay a disproportionately high amount of tax, compared to the Road User Charges paid by diesel vehicles.

So maybe RUC isn’t even enough yet?

KrazyKid

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#1961721 21-Feb-2018 17:06

In short we need to work out what the goal of petrol excise and RUVs are set policy accordingly. Sounds like a full review is needed to me. In the meantime we have a short period of time that they RUV charge is being used as an incentive.

Back on topic I read that the 2018 Leaf is currently the best selling car in Norway at the moment. That's including ICE sales

Fred99

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#1961751 21-Feb-2018 18:23

PhantomNVD: And in the same article it also says

users of petrol vehicles pay a disproportionately high amount of tax, compared to the Road User Charges paid by diesel vehicles.

So maybe RUC isn’t even enough yet?

Clearly not - when funds collected and distributed are insufficient to the point that a "regional" excise of $0.11/litre is claimed to be needed to meet Auckland's roading demands. Tolls - like in Sydney where you can easily get whacked in excess of $8 on your daily commute are another possibility.

I actually don't agree with many of the comments about too much RUC being paid by private motor vehicle users vs heavy transport. The argument that "damage to road surfaces by heavy transport" is undercollected seems to always assume that the only cost of operating a national road network is road resurfacing. It's not that simple. I'd also prefer if environmental matters (emissions) were kept separate, and dealt with separately from road user charges, as it's fundamentally wrong to separate them from a revenue POV. If they want to implement a carbon tax and/or subsidise EVs - then do it in a way so that isn't able to be obfuscated and argued about.

EVs should pay full RUC.

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SaltyNZ

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#1961767 21-Feb-2018 18:47

Fred99: I'd also prefer if environmental matters (emissions) were kept separate, and dealt with separately from road user charges, as it's fundamentally wrong to separate them from a revenue POV. If they want to implement a carbon tax and/or subsidise EVs - then do it in a way so that isn't able to be obfuscated and argued about.

EVs should pay full RUC.

So you’re advocating a carbon tax for fossil fuelled vehicles? Sure, bring it on. Of course now you have yet another tax with its own compliance costs for both government and road users, so in practice maybe ideological purity could be slightly sacrificed in the name of efficiency for everyone’s sake. Alternatively add it as a fuel tax - including on diesel, because diesel burnt on farms is still a greenhouse gas even if not damaging the roads.

Also I think you misunderstand people here. Everyone, myself included, is perfectly fine with the idea of EVs contributing towards roading costs. The remission on RUCs for EVs was only ever intended to be temporary and is, quite frankly, the literal very least our government can do to help wean us off oil. I don’t understand why you are so deeply offended by such a small, temporary incentive, which quite frankly had no bearing whatsoever on my decision to buy an EV. Nor, I’ll wager, anyone else.

I assure you I didn’t think to myself “Hey, if just pay more than 6x what I paid for my last car, I can avoid a relatively small tax for the next two years. Stickin’ it to the man!”

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MarkH67

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#1961772 21-Feb-2018 19:02

I'll all for a carbon tax of 50c per litre for ALL diesel & petrol used (including by generators) and 50c per KG of coal burnt in Huntly (and by anyone else) and an appropriate amount for natural gas burnt (including power generation). Sure, electricity prices would go up for fossil fuel burning generation - but that is fair! There needs to be a greater disincentive to burning fossil fuels! My motorcycle would be dearer to use, as it should be!

The money could be used for a variety of purposes, including paying for roading so EVs don't need to pay a RUC for longer. Some money could be used to subsidise public transport. Some could be used to subidise EVs, at least have any EV buyer able to claim a rebate of the GST paid as part of the EV purchase. They could even use some of the money for grants to anyone doing research on environmentally beneficial technology like better batteries, solar panels, electric motors, etc.

Fred99

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#1961785 21-Feb-2018 19:29

SaltyNZ: I don’t understand why you are so deeply offended by such a small, temporary incentive, which quite frankly had no bearing whatsoever on my decision to buy an EV. Nor, I’ll wager, anyone else.

I'm not deeply offended, so long as it stays temporary and there's a coherent transparent policy.

I'll wager that the decision to buy every hybrid taxi on the road was influenced by incentives. I'm not saying that's bad, but when you need to analyse TCO in a business, those incentives (obviously no RUC on the petrol saved) - with no "range anxiety" as would exist with that duty cycle with a plug in, it was a no-brainer. Don't underestimate taxi drivers' financial skills.

Aredwood

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#1961930 22-Feb-2018 01:46

Fred99:

Clearly not - when funds collected and distributed are insufficient to the point that a "regional" excise of $0.11/litre is claimed to be needed to meet Auckland's roading demands. Tolls - like in Sydney where you can easily get whacked in excess of $8 on your daily commute are another possibility.

I actually don't agree with many of the comments about too much RUC being paid by private motor vehicle users vs heavy transport. The argument that "damage to road surfaces by heavy transport" is undercollected seems to always assume that the only cost of operating a national road network is road resurfacing. It's not that simple. I'd also prefer if environmental matters (emissions) were kept separate, and dealt with separately from road user charges, as it's fundamentally wrong to separate them from a revenue POV. If they want to implement a carbon tax and/or subsidise EVs - then do it in a way so that isn't able to be obfuscated and argued about.

EVs should pay full RUC.

Fully agree.

As far as I can tell, RUCs are only recovering roading related costs. (If someone is aware of a carbon tax included in RUCs, please post details). When RUCs are reintroduced for EVs, Petrol cars should also be made liable for RUCs. If this is not done, we will end up with the silly situation of some petrol hybrid cars (mainly the Toyota Aqua/Pirus C and Nissan Note Epower) paying less taxes than EVs.

There have been stickers on petrol pumps for a long time, which state that emissions trading scheme costs are already included in the price of the fuels. Presumably those costs also apply to diesel as well as petrol. mu understanding is that the ETS costs on these fuels reflects the carbon emissions unit cost.

As for power generation, any extra taxes on fossil fuelled generation are pointless, until those costs can be passed on to consumers based on the amount of carbon actually been emitted for electricity generation. The amount of fossil generation in operation will be vastly different comparing 3AM during summer. And at 8PM during winter. But the actual cost that most people pay for their power is exactly the same, all year round. Therefore no incentive to time shift their power consumption, to reduce emissions. And the silly low user regulations, mean that LPG is cheaper than power for lots of people. And in some cases, even diesel and coal are cheaper than power. The low user regulations are therefore an indirect tax on renewable energy. The Resource Management Act is another indirect tax on renewable energy, as it makes building new power stations (especially renewable generation) more expensive. Which further contributes to fossil fuels being cheaper for lots of end users.

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#1962074 22-Feb-2018 09:31

Still more postings about non leaf discussions.

Could they be moved to ev general?

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Aredwood

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#1962131 22-Feb-2018 11:00

Apologies, I took things a bit too liberally as there were already lots of posts to do with the environment and policy in this thread.

I have started a new thread in the Politics forum.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=230396

RUKI

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#1962600 23-Feb-2018 00:40

Another batch of 2017 Leafs is in transit to New Zealand - being imported by second hand dealers. At the price close to 60-65K would do you folks think of that model? I saw it in Auckland when one dealer was doing their promo road trip. It is still small car with better shape vs previous models, but the price... 2011-2016 Leafs are popular for many reasons and competitive, relatively low price (considering many factors) is one of the reasons for it popularity. But 60K? All of a sudden there are many other choices including much more luxurious (second hand) cars (including Lexus and Camry Hybrids) for that (or less) money... and new Ioniq from the dealer with NZ warranty...

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wellygary

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#1962620 23-Feb-2018 07:21

RUKI:

But 60K? All of a sudden there are many other choices including much more luxurious (second hand) cars (including Lexus and Camry Hybrids) for that (or less) money... and new Ioniq from the dealer with NZ warranty...

New e-Golf at 62K looks really nice too

Nimma

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#1963092 23-Feb-2018 16:56

RUKI:

Another batch of 2017 Leafs is in transit to New Zealand - being imported by second hand dealers. At the price close to 60-65K would do you folks think of that model? I saw it in Auckland when one dealer was doing their promo road trip. It is still small car with better shape vs previous models, but the price... 2011-2016 Leafs are popular for many reasons and competitive, relatively low price (considering many factors) is one of the reasons for it popularity. But 60K? All of a sudden there are many other choices including much more luxurious (second hand) cars (including Lexus and Camry Hybrids) for that (or less) money... and new Ioniq from the dealer with NZ warranty...

That just feels like too much for a grey import without dealer support (yet). Yeah it's a Nissan Leaf but such a different proposition to even 30kW leafs from the previous generation.

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