RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3138592 4-Oct-2023 08:53

evilengineer:

As sixteen pages of thread demonstrates, there's plenty of devil in the detail type stuff to work through. And that's just RUCs, never mind RUCS + congestion charging.

The EV RUC solution requires no effort, The current law will see the exemption expire on March 31 2024, and all EVs (+PHEVs) will pay $76/1000km.

https://legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2021/0304/7.0/whole.html

When it was originally implemented it was said they would remove the exemption when EVs were 2% of the light fleet, ( which is now expected in 2024/25)

Looking at the Regulatory impact statement when they last extended it, they are aware of the PHEV issue and would prefer to create a special RUC class for PHEVs, but it requires legislation, so that can slow things down, but they are prepared to just "double tax" them if they have to..

But its clear there is really no desire to continue with the EV exemption

https://www.transport.govt.nz//assets/Uploads/OC210437-Extension-of-light-EV-RUC-exemption-RIA-1.pdf

frankv

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#3138598 4-Oct-2023 09:16

smac:

frankv:

It really shouldn't matter what the government wants. So long as the user pays the whole cost of their activity (including the cost of mitigating/repairing both road damage and climate damage), then the government shouldn't care. If you want to drive an Abrams tank on the roads, you pay all the costs of that and the government shouldn't care if more people choose to do that or not.

The problem with that is it ignores all the obligations the govt has under all the various climate/environment agreements. Emissions need to come down, ICE cars make emissions, so unfortunately the govt DOES care what you drive. One way of influencing what you drive is by hitting you in the pocket.

The cost of (say) someone driving a tank in terms of emissions is the cost of achieving that part of the government's emission obligations some other way. Assuming a tank emits 100 times as much as an ordinary car, then the cost of 1 person driving a tank is the cost of converting 100 more people to EVs. The tank's emission tax is used to subsidize purchase of EVs, or install chargers, or subsidize electricity prices, or whatever else is required to do those 100 changes. Admittedly, it's difficult to estimate the cost of persuading those 100 people to change, and there's other ways the government might reduce emissions to meet its obligations (e.g.by building another hydro dam), but this is what economists do.

boosacnoodle

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#3138600 4-Oct-2023 09:22

Are there any hubodometers that exist today that would even be suitable for an EV?

SaltyNZ

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#3138603 4-Oct-2023 09:33

frankv:

The cost of (say) someone driving a tank in terms of emissions is the cost of achieving that part of the government's emission obligations some other way. Assuming a tank emits 100 times as much as an ordinary car, then the cost of 1 person driving a tank is the cost of converting 100 more people to EVs. The tank's emission tax is used to subsidize purchase of EVs, or install chargers, or subsidize electricity prices, or whatever else is required to do those 100 changes. Admittedly, it's difficult to estimate the cost of persuading those 100 people to change, and there's other ways the government might reduce emissions to meet its obligations (e.g.by building another hydro dam), but this is what economists do.

So what I'm hearing is: EV tanks.

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HarmLessSolutions

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#3142583 4-Oct-2023 10:05

boosacnoodle:

Are there any hubodometers that exist today that would even be suitable for an EV?

A dongle that connects to the EV's OBD port is a far more efficient and less liable to corruption (by accident or intent) than a primitive meter attached to a vehicle's wheel. It also presents huge opportunities in terms of levying the likes of congestion charges and deducting off road usage, and in automating the data collection and payment processes.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

evilengineer

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#3142635 4-Oct-2023 11:40

mattwnz:

Azzura:

Another option is to maintain the current RUC system and expand its application to include EVs and other vehicles. However, it may be worthwhile to remove the carbon tax on fuels and instead implement an emissions charge that is integrated into the RUC structure based on the specific type of vehicle engine.

This is why I really don't understand Nationals reasoning for getting rid of the subsides and levies, as it helps with NZs emissions obligations.

They think it appeals to the base and there's some easy votes in it for them. There isn't any logic to it.

Just the stereotypical Jeremy Clarkson/Mike Hoskins view that EVs are somehow effeminate and only driven by pinko-leftie tree huggers.

That and the warped right wing idea of "freedom" that says you should be able to do whatever the hell you like, including driving comically oversized gas guzzling vehicles through the centre of town, regardless of how selfish that behaviour may be.

Yes, at some point EVs need to pay RUCs. But with all the talk on this thread of charging EVs more because of their higher curb weight I would content that Utes should also receive a special classification and be charged a premium rate to cover their public nuisance.

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MikeAqua

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#3142640 4-Oct-2023 11:50

boosacnoodle:

Are there any hubodometers that exist today that would even be suitable for an EV?

Why a hubometer? Most light diesel vehicles simply lose the odometer.

Mike

GV27

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#3142644 4-Oct-2023 11:56

evilengineer:

Yes, at some point EVs need to pay RUCs. But with all the talk on this thread of charging EVs more because of their higher curb weight I would content that Utes should also receive a special classification and be charged a premium rate to cover their public nuisance.

The higher curb weight thing is a temporary issue. It will resolve as battery chemistries become more denser and resilient. This will mean vehicles don't need huge batteries to begin with. These gains are still there to be had for batteries.

Meanwhile, an ICE vehicle is about as realistically light as it can get in many cases. I suspect the difference between a Camry and a Model 3 will disappear with tech like the CATL Shenxing packs and further development will improve that even more.

By the time such a weight-based system is implemented it could well be that meaningful weight differences between an ICE equivalent and an EV no longer exist.

RunningMan

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#3142645 4-Oct-2023 11:57

frankv:The cost of (say) someone driving a tank in terms of emissions is the cost of achieving that part of the government's emission obligations some other way. Assuming a tank emits 100 times as much as an ordinary car, then the cost of 1 person driving a tank is the cost of converting 100 more people to EVs. The tank's emission tax is used to subsidize purchase of EVs, or install chargers, or subsidize electricity prices, or whatever else is required to do those 100 changes. Admittedly, it's difficult to estimate the cost of persuading those 100 people to change, and there's other ways the government might reduce emissions to meet its obligations (e.g.by building another hydro dam), but this is what economists do.

Zero emissions tank.

evilengineer

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#3142648 4-Oct-2023 12:00

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

This is why I really don't understand Nationals reasoning for getting rid of the subsides and levies, as it helps with NZs emissions obligations.

I could be wrong but wasnt that the plan anyway? Date wise and National/Labour wise? EV's are down in price, fossil fuels are up in price (not that they could foresee that) but you cant have the subsidy forever

Nobody is suggesting the subsidies stay "forever".

But until petrol is $5 a litre and EVs are significantly cheaper than the ICE alternative then there is an argument for persuading people to "do the right thing" with an incentive or nudge in the right direction.

And even then it seems like there's a sizable number of refuseniks who will only stop buying new ICE vehicles when they are actually banned from sale.

Now isn't the time for dropping the clean car discount at the very least, regardless of whether the RUC exception is allowed to lapse.

Simple fact is that dropping the clean car discount will lead to a reduction in the sale of EVs and at the same time increase the sales of SUVs and Utes.

And any new ICE vehicle purchased today will still be causing emissions in 10-15 years time.

evilengineer

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#3142649 4-Oct-2023 12:07

GV27:

evilengineer:

Yes, at some point EVs need to pay RUCs. But with all the talk on this thread of charging EVs more because of their higher curb weight I would content that Utes should also receive a special classification and be charged a premium rate to cover their public nuisance.

The higher curb weight thing is a temporary issue. It will resolve as battery chemistries become more denser and resilient. This will mean vehicles don't need huge batteries to begin with. These gains are still there to be had for batteries.

Meanwhile, an ICE vehicle is about as realistically light as it can get in many cases. I suspect the difference between a Camry and a Model 3 will disappear with tech like the CATL Shenxing packs and further development will improve that even more.

By the time such a weight-based system is implemented it could well be that meaningful weight differences between an ICE equivalent and an EV no longer exist.

I'm not advocating for a curb weight based system, although some here do appear to be doing so based on all the talk in this thread about the weight of EVs.

I'm advocating for a special significantly higher public nuisance RUC rate for Utes.

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SaltyNZ

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#3142650 4-Oct-2023 12:07

evilengineer:

Yes, at some point EVs need to pay RUCs. But with all the talk on this thread of charging EVs more because of their higher curb weight I would content that Utes should also receive a special classification and be charged a premium rate to cover their public nuisance.

Well, yeah, if weight is a reason to charge EVs more then the ute drivers are in for a shock. They weigh more than EVs.

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MikeAqua

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#3142703 4-Oct-2023 12:31

evilengineer:

They think it appeals to the base and there's some easy votes in it for them. There isn't any logic to it.

Also, the subsidy was being used to purchase a lot of vehicle most people simply can't afford. I think last month the Tesla Y was NZ's most popular vehicle. $72k car with ~10% subsidy for rich buyers.

And the lack of equivalent vehicles for those who need a ute for work vehicles. The few light-commercial EVs available have poor range when empty and lamentably poor range with a significant load.

There is also the less significant issue of utes/SUVs that are owned for recreational pursuits. If we're at a point where we are saying those pursuits are no longer viable, that's a lot of socio-economic and leisure activity out the window. You'd also want to look at where that investment and leisure time is displaced into, and the effects of that.

Mike

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#3142706 4-Oct-2023 12:43

Farmers moaning they can't get an EV ute so are being denied a potential benefit....

Ok can I wri e off the gst on my car or depreciate it too.

There seem to be lots of business UTEs driving around with kids seats in... OK maybe they are paying fringe benefit tax for weekend use but some how I doubt it

SaltyNZ

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#3142719 4-Oct-2023 13:03

MikeAqua:

And the lack of equivalent vehicles for those who need a ute for work vehicles.

Those work vehicles also retail in the $80K range, so not exactly a poor-man's vehicle either. But anyone who is buying them for work is also claiming back GST and probably FBT etc. dropping at least $11K off the price to begin with - quite a bit more than the EV rebate. "Work" vehicles are a lot cheaper.

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