EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2646377 3-Feb-2021 12:02

Technofreak:

EV's aren't clean either. But hey, let's not acknowledge that inconvenient fact.

The difference is that EVs can be almost 100% emissions free from the mining of resources to make them to the operation of them.

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Technofreak

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#2646385 3-Feb-2021 12:17

Obraik:

Technofreak:

EV's aren't clean either. But hey, let's not acknowledge that inconvenient fact.

The difference is that EVs can be almost 100% emissions free from the mining of resources to make them to the operation of them.

The reality is, on a world wide basis, they are not anywhere near 100% emissions free nor environmentally friendly. The future should bring big improvements but right now the clean green image is a facade.

https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951807/electric-vehicles-battery-recycling

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Obraik

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#2646387 3-Feb-2021 12:23

Technofreak:

Obraik:

The difference is that EVs can be almost 100% emissions free from the mining of resources to make them to the operation of them.

The reality is, on a world wide basis, they are not anywhere near 100% emissions free nor environmentally friendly. The future should bring big improvements but right now the clean green image is a facade.

https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951807/electric-vehicles-battery-recycling

You'll note I said can be. As the factories that make the vehicles use more and more power from renewable sources and the mining machinery is made electric then yes, the emissions foot print of EVs will be almost nothing. Is it that way right now? No, but even today it's far better than that of ICE vehicles.

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afe66

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#2646402 3-Feb-2021 12:30

When people go through the minute details of all the costs if an ev, I haven't seen the same examination if petrol cars.

Using nz as that's where we live. Water falls under the force if gravity and makes electricity travels down existing power line go my house.

Oil. Pumped out of ground using electricity, travel along to refinery then fractionated, modified then pumped to boat travels 1000s of km using fossil fuels, the pumped to storage then released into coastal tankers using more fossil fuels, then to road tankers burning fossil fuels then to local bp where you drive using more fossil fuels to load up with fossil fuels.

SaltyNZ

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#2646403 3-Feb-2021 12:31

Technofreak:

The reality is, on a world wide basis, they are not anywhere near 100% emissions free nor environmentally friendly. The future should bring big improvements but right now the clean green image is a facade.

Yes, again, everybody is well aware that right now the majority of spent EV batteries are not recycled. But the ones that aren't repurposed or recycled already are ending up in big piles where they will be at some point in the probably near future.

Unlike anything fossil fuel based, which you have to keep mining more of forever because you burn it once and it's gone.

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tdgeek

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#2646409 3-Feb-2021 12:42

Obraik:

You'll note I said can be. As the factories that make the vehicles use more and more power from renewable sources and the mining machinery is made electric then yes, the emissions foot print of EVs will be almost nothing. Is it that way right now? No, but even today it's far better than that of ICE vehicles.

If a car factory used more power from renewables that will apply also to ICE factories, as well as other non vehicle factories

Today, the article infers that EV's use more CO2 to be manufactured, mainly due to the energy intensive battery production. In countries that have renewable energy such as NZ, the ICE will use more due to fuel usage. In countries that burn FF to create electricity, you are just moving the CO2 around

Whill EV's are better and are the way of the future, they wont provide the 100% green instant fix that many seem to cling onto

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Obraik

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#2646419 3-Feb-2021 12:55

SaltyNZ:

Yes, again, everybody is well aware that right now the majority of spent EV batteries are not recycled. But the ones that aren't repurposed or recycled already are ending up in big piles where they will be at some point in the probably near future.

Unlike anything fossil fuel based, which you have to keep mining more of forever because you burn it once and it's gone.

There's not really a lot of EV batteries piling up at all. Very few have ended up to the point where they're just not usable at all. Instead those that are no longer useful in an EV end up in home energy storage. Recycling facilities are popping up, including from car makers such as Tesla and VW. Tesla even plans on the majority of their resources for new batteries coming from recycled batteries as EVs become the majority.

tdgeek:

If a car factory used more power from renewables that will apply also to ICE factories, as well as other non vehicle factories

Today, the article infers that EV's use more CO2 to be manufactured, mainly due to the energy intensive battery production. In countries that have renewable energy such as NZ, the ICE will use more due to fuel usage. In countries that burn FF to create electricity, you are just moving the CO2 around

Whill EV's are better and are the way of the future, they wont provide the 100% green instant fix that many seem to cling onto

Sure, ICE vehicles can be made in renewable powered factories but there is a limit on how clean an ICE vehicle can be made as the fuel is still burnt to power it. The refining process still creates emissions.

Again, you'll note that I said that EVs are not 100% emissions free currently, but they have the realistic potential to be almost 100% emissions free in the not so distant future.

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GV27

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#2646427 3-Feb-2021 13:08

Technofreak:

The reality is, on a world wide basis, they are not anywhere near 100% emissions free nor environmentally friendly. The future should bring big improvements but right now the clean green image is a facade.

https://youmatter.world/en/are-electric-cars-eco-friendly-and-zero-emission-vehicles-26440/

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951807/electric-vehicles-battery-recycling

This doesn't apply in NZ where an overwhelming majority of our power is generated using renewable energy. It's also from 2018. Which means the data they were looking at is from pre-optimised NMC batteries or the old garbage Leaf ones and mostly based on batteries that used cobalt in a highly inefficient way. There's a huge incentive to use less cobalt, for instance, because cobalt is now massively expensive and drives up costs - which is why battery manufacturers are trying to develop batteries using zero- or low-cobalt doping.

In the same vein, nickel is by no means a 'rare-earth' element, nor is graphite. I'm no chemist but this is patently ridiculous, and we don't hear these complaints about Li-Ion as a technology when it comes to AA batteries or smartphones or disposable consumer electronics. They're tedious talking points, plumped by industries that are either facing extinction or scrambling to adapt to a world they should have seen coming years ago. And not only that, they're wrong and no longer relevant to the technology we have today, or the silicon-based anodes that will help us bridge the gap between today's batteries and Solid State Batteries, whenever they actually get finished.

And last time I checked, conventional engine blocks, spark plugs and other items you'd find in an ICE that requires fossil fuels to run aren't exactly made from hemp and daisies, nor are the smelters that cast them or the extractive industries focused around ores.

tdgeek

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#2646428 3-Feb-2021 13:09

Obraik:

Sure, ICE vehicles can be made in renewable powered factories but there is a limit on how clean an ICE vehicle can be made as the fuel is still burnt to power it. The refining process still creates emissions.

Again, you'll note that I said that EVs are not 100% emissions free currently, but they have the realistic potential to be almost 100% emissions free in the not so distant future.

You are looking at it solely in a way to boost the EV.

If factories for EV and ICE were renewable you get the same saving

ICE will obviuosly continue to use emissions in usage.

The above two points save CO2, not by what car they made but that they are a factory that did not use CO2

Yes, EV's "could" be almost 100% green, and in terms of manufacture they offer the same CO2 reduction as ICE

So, its not a case of almost 100% green vs 100% dirty

Obraik

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#2646430 3-Feb-2021 13:11

tdgeek:

You are looking at it solely in a way to boost the EV.

If factories for EV and ICE were renewable you get the same saving

ICE will obviuosly continue to use emissions in usage.

The above two points save CO2, not by what car they made but that they are a factory that did not use CO2

Yes, EV's "could" be almost 100% green, and in terms of manufacture they offer the same CO2 reduction as ICE

So, its not a case of almost 100% green vs 100% dirty

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

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tdgeek

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#2646431 3-Feb-2021 13:12

GV27:

This doesn't apply in NZ where an overwhelming majority of our power is generated using renewable energy.

That's funny. off course you are correct but when Kiwis talk about Climate Change they quickly jump to the "we are too small to make a difference" so dont bother me

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tdgeek

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#2646435 3-Feb-2021 13:24

Obraik:

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Its quite obvious unless you prefer to look the other way. You always have an answer that makes EV's look wonderful, thats misleading

You say EV can be almost 100% green if they are manufactured by green energy but avoid the obvious fact that if an ICE was manufactured with green energy you get the same saving. Job done. But you prefer to ignore that and make it appear as, so green its not funny vs so dirty its not funny

In most countries where they dont have 92% renewable, both an EV and an ICE are dirty to manufacture, more so for the EV. EV off course is cleaner in its usage lifetime. But they are both dirty. If you solve that by having renewable factories, that saves the earth. It doesnt matter if these green factories make EV's or washing machines, you've saved the earth because you made all factories green.

frankv

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#2646436 3-Feb-2021 13:26

tdgeek:

energy intensive battery production.

Sounds like the ideal thing to switch Manapouri to powering.

Obraik

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#2646438 3-Feb-2021 13:28

tdgeek:

Its quite obvious unless you prefer to look the other way. You always have an answer that makes EV's look wonderful, thats misleading

You say EV can be almost 100% green if they are manufactured by green energy but avoid the obvious fact that if an ICE was manufactured with green energy you get the same saving. Job done. But you prefer to ignore that and make it appear as, so green its not funny vs so dirty its not funny

In most countries where they dont have 92% renewable, both an EV and an ICE are dirty to manufacture, more so for the EV. EV off course is cleaner in its usage lifetime. But they are both dirty. If you solve that by having renewable factories, that saves the earth. It doesnt matter if these green factories make EV's or washing machines, you've saved the earth because you made all factories green.

But an ICE vehicle can never be nearly 100% emissions free. An EV can.

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tdgeek

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#2646440 3-Feb-2021 13:32

GV27:

And last time I checked, conventional engine blocks, spark plugs and other items you'd find in an ICE that requires fossil fuels to run aren't exactly made from hemp and daisies, nor are the smelters that cast them or the extractive industries focused around ores.

Same applies to EV's. They have metal in their engine, and the rest of the car is the same, so its not a none vs many argument. And a large EV has more than a small ICE, so I dont follow your point. Not unless EVs are made from cardboard

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