EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#1916990 11-Dec-2017 20:41

Aredwood: Dodgy car dealers. I had a look through the EVs on Trade me. And there were 9 cars listed as EVs (fuel type specified as electric). That were not an EV.

2 of them were just normal petrol cars While the rest were hybrids. My definition of an electric car is that it has a charging port for a traction battery. Making it possible to drive the car without needing any hydrocarbon fuels. Therefore cars like the Toyota aqua or Nissan Note Epower are not electric cars. As the only energy source that you can provide to them is petrol.

There is also a well known EV dealer who is advertising the Note Epower as zero emission. In Other words that dealer is claiming that a petrol engine in a car that can only be fuelled by petrol, is supposedly zero emissions.

Rrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

And car dealers wounder why the public always considers them to be dodgy.

I have reported all of them to Trade me. One got removed almost immediately, so far the rest of them are still listed.

With regard to the Nissan Note e-Power, there is a separate thread about this vehicle here:

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=225605

As explained in the above thread, the Nissan Note e-Power runs solely on an electric engine, and the petrol engine is used only to charge the battery. So, I can understand why a dealer may classify this as an EV because it is completely different to a vehicle that can't run 100% of the time using an electric motor.

So, yes, it all comes down to how you define an electric vehicle and I could come up with a definition that says an electric vehicle is one that can be driven 100% of the time using an electric motor, in which case, the Nissan Note e-Power would be correctly classified as an EV and so would the Nissan Leaf.

Aredwood

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#1917069 12-Dec-2017 01:26

Is the Note Epower a zero emissions car though? No, as you can only fuel it with petrol.

And then there are the diesel trains that kiwirail use. They are actually diesel electric. As in their diesel engines are solely for running generators. Yet they are not considered electric trains.

And then there is the trial of allowing EVs to use the T2 motorway onramp lanes. The government definition of an EV excludes the Note Epower.

Under the definition in the Land Transport (Road User) Rule, an electric vehicle is a vehicle that is wholly or partly powered by a battery which is charged by plugging into an external source of electricity.

Conventional hybrids, such as the Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid, that cannot plug-in are not electric vehicles.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/electric-vehicles-special-vehicle-lanes/question-and-answers/#what-is-an-electric-vehicle

And

https://www.gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2017-au4700%20

The important part of the definition is the ability or lack of ability to plug the car into an external power source. So it is definitely misleading to claim that a car which does not meet the government definition of an electric car, is supposedly an electric car.

Also the Toyota prius models. (even the first generation version) have the ability to be driven solely using battery power and it's electric motor. So the prius is definitely comparable to the Note Epower.

Also the Note Epower was designed to give large car acceleration in a small car. Solely to take advantage of tax breaks on small cars that some countries have. Tax breaks that don't exist in NZ.

kingdragonfly

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#1917086 12-Dec-2017 07:48

"Thought of the Day: Should We Praise or Criticize the Nissan Note e-Power?"

Short video. Skip to 1:30

Linuxluver

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#1917152 12-Dec-2017 09:21

kingdragonfly: "Thought of the Day: Should We Praise or Criticize the Nissan Note e-Power?"

Short video. Skip to 1:30

A hybrid is better than nothing......and in any schedule of incentives for purchase, this should be recognised.

Right now, NZ has a minimal set of incentives, in line with the previous government's tendency to talk a bit about climate change, set great targets......and then actually do very little to make them happen. Not nothing at all. Just very little.

This car would save money on petrol and reduce emissions by reducing the amount of petrol burned. That's good.

I wouldn't buy one. I'm used to driving an EV now and have crashed through the mental barriers fear of the unknown tends to erect in front of any change. I won't be going back to petrol. I'd use public transport first. But there are people who will see value in this car.

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MikeAqua

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#1917155 12-Dec-2017 09:29

Aredwood:

There is also a well known EV dealer who is advertising the Note Epower as zero emission. In Other words that dealer is claiming that a petrol engine in a car that can only be fuelled by petrol, is supposedly zero emissions.

No EV is truly zero emissions - despite what manufacturers claim.

They all emit noise, heat, tyre rubber, brake dust and probably the odd bit of bearing lube here and there. Electricity in NZ (unless generated at home) also comes with an amount of GHG emissions - either C02 from natural gas generation or various GHG emissions from geothermal plants - this varies by plant/field.

Low emissions would be a fair and accurate claim.

Mike

frednz

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#1917157 12-Dec-2017 09:31

Aredwood: Is the Note Epower a zero emissions car though? No, as you can only fuel it with petrol.

Just because an EV is charged up by plugging into an external source of electricity doesn't mean that it should be regarded as emissions free. This is because the power stations that generate electricity are by no means emissions free. When will NZ stop using natural gas or coal to generate electricity?

And just because some Government Agency puts out a definition of an EV that excludes the Nissan Note e-Power, which is driven 100% of the time by an electric motor, doesn't mean that a car dealer is misleading the public by saying that the e-Power is an electric vehicle. Of course it's an electric vehicle, just as the BMW i3 range extender version is an electric vehicle, even though at times it charges up the battery in exactly the same way as the Note e-Power.

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Linuxluver

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#1917160 12-Dec-2017 09:35

MikeAqua:

Aredwood:

There is also a well known EV dealer who is advertising the Note Epower as zero emission. In Other words that dealer is claiming that a petrol engine in a car that can only be fuelled by petrol, is supposedly zero emissions.

No EV is truly zero emissions - despite what manufacturers claim.

They all emit noise, heat, tyre rubber, brake dust and probably the odd bit of bearing lube here and there. Electricity in NZ (unless generated at home) also comes with an amount of GHG emissions - either C02 from natural gas generation or various GHG emissions from geothermal plants - this varies by plant/field.

Low emissions would be a fair and accurate claim.

What the term means is zero N2O, CO and CO2 emissions. Marketing shorthand has simplified that to "Zero Emissions".

It was never intended to signify the car emits nothing at all.

With that in mind, "Zero Emissions" is accurate in the context intended.

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MikeAqua

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#1917162 12-Dec-2017 09:37

This is all typical of an emerging market - with time the language will settle down as consumers get savvy.

Perhaps a complaint to the com-com concerning Hyundai's zero emissions claim about the Ioniq would be in order.

Mike

Linuxluver

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#1917166 12-Dec-2017 09:40

MikeAqua:

This is all typical of an emerging market - with time the language will settle down as consumers get savvy.

Perhaps a complaint to the com-com concerning Hyundai's zero emissions claim about the Ioniq would be in order.

Would you prioritise this as a good use of your time?

There are so many much more egregious things going on that deserve attention if you have the free time. :-)

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MikeAqua

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#1917182 12-Dec-2017 09:57

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

This is all typical of an emerging market - with time the language will settle down as consumers get savvy.

Perhaps a complaint to the com-com concerning Hyundai's zero emissions claim about the Ioniq would be in order.

Would you prioritise this as a good use of your time?

There are so many much more egregious things going on that deserve attention if you have the free time. :-)

Is it a good use of your time to assume I was serious?

Mike

MikeAqua

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#1917187 12-Dec-2017 10:04

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Aredwood:

There is also a well known EV dealer who is advertising the Note Epower as zero emission. In Other words that dealer is claiming that a petrol engine in a car that can only be fuelled by petrol, is supposedly zero emissions.

No EV is truly zero emissions - despite what manufacturers claim.

They all emit noise, heat, tyre rubber, brake dust and probably the odd bit of bearing lube here and there. Electricity in NZ (unless generated at home) also comes with an amount of GHG emissions - either C02 from natural gas generation or various GHG emissions from geothermal plants - this varies by plant/field.

Low emissions would be a fair and accurate claim.

What the term means is zero N2O, CO and CO2 emissions. Marketing shorthand has simplified that to "Zero Emissions".

It was never intended to signify the car emits nothing at all.

With that in mind, "Zero Emissions" is accurate in the context intended.

But that's not true either. While their are zero or minimal direct emissions of those gases, they are admitted in the production of electricity. Zero means only one thing - nil zero, nade zilch, zip or ta teh evyr least below the limit of detection. If calling a low thickness chip Slims was considered misleading, then calling a car that directly and indirectly emits "Zero Emissions" is probably similarly misleading.

Limited direct emission doesn't make for very catchy marketing slogan though does it.

Mike

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frednz

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#1917192 12-Dec-2017 10:08

Aredwood:

Under the definition in the Land Transport (Road User) Rule, an electric vehicle is a vehicle that is wholly or partly powered by a battery which is charged by plugging into an external source of electricity.

Conventional hybrids, such as the Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid, that cannot plug-in are not electric vehicles.

The above definition means that a plug-in hybrid EV, which might only have a "pure electric range" of 30kms - 40kms (or less), is classified as an EV even though the driver, on a trip from Auckland to Wellington, is likely to use petrol to power the car for 95% of the time.

If you are going to encourage people to buy electric cars that are supposedly better for the environment than those that can use petrol most of the time, then the above definition of an EV should exclude the words "or partly".

Remember also, that the Nissan Note e-Power, which runs entirely on an electric motor, does not have its petrol engine running for 100% of the time, so it's quite possible that, on one petrol fill, it could match or better the 30kms - 40kms of pure electric driving that is achieved by a typical plug-in hybrid EV.

hamish225

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#1917202 12-Dec-2017 10:14

If you live in the South Island and only charge your car when the HVDC cable isn’t importing power from the north island it’s 100% renewable with no Co2 emissions at all, since according to trans power there’s only wind and hydro generation in the south :p

*Insert big spe*dtest result here*

KrazyKid

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#1917250 12-Dec-2017 10:43

Just to show how fine you can split hairs, I was reading that hydro lakes methane emissions may have been under estimated recently when calculating world CO2 production.

Everything is relative.

I suppose the question is how much marketing puffery is acceptable.
This is exactly the same as HD /Full HD displays (720p vs 1080p)

I wish marketing would not be so excessive and can see the point of view it could be misleading, however there is a limit to which we should we can hold everyone's hand.

MarkH67

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#1917399 12-Dec-2017 13:16

frednz:

When will NZ stop using natural gas or coal to generate electricity?

For coal - it should be within a couple of years when we shut down Huntly that we stop using coal to generate electricity.

For natural gas - Prime Minister Adern has set a goal of being 100% clean for our electricity grid by 2035 so I'd suggest what is meant by that is we will stop burning natural gas to generate electricity by 2035. Hopefully by that time we have well over 50% of new car sales being fully electric.

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