Nissan LEAF - General

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#1913230 5-Dec-2017 11:42

RUKI:
I just looked up the data from the reputable source - Idaho Lab who does test all types of Hybrids and EV in their multi-million dollar Lab with cars under test in the field being equipped with data loggers.

In brief: Capacity loss in Leafs ~38% after 24000 miles:

Capacity Tests in Leafs

Fast Chargers (DCFC) degrade battery faster and impacts capacity (results after 63000 miles):

Fast Chargers Impact

How did you come up with that number?

The reduction in Ah capacity over 17,258 miles (27,774 km) was 27.7% in this 2013 Leaf.

Still seems high to me, but there is no temperature data so is this a study of battery degradation in the worst case scenario? Is there any link you can provide on the context of the study?

It seems to me this Leaf would have lost one bar rather early.

paulchinnz

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#1913231 5-Dec-2017 11:43

@RUKI looks like they tested 1 car for the capacity test. This is better than no data (assuming it's all correct), but what's the variance between cars/batteries? Also, this helps put what I'm seeing with my 2013 Leaf into context, but I expect less helpful for e.g. 2016 30kWh model.

The DCFC data are for 2012 batteries i.e. pre-'lizard' battery, so no sure how useful for 2013+ cars. Does support the notion that passive thermal regulation isn't good enough if you're going to do a lot of long distance/fast charging.

As the EV market wisens up to battery considerations beyond range, I expect there'll be greater demand on the manufacturer to more prominently state the thermal regulation employed.

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#1913285 5-Dec-2017 12:57

Our 2011, ‘pre lizzard’ Gen1 24kwh Leaf has 29,000k on the clock and is at 81% SoH (after 7,000 kms we put on ourselves)
This is (just barely) still reporting as an 11 bar with 124kms on the GoM when charges to 100% last night.

We have now had over 400 QC and 420 ‘slow’ charges (reported on leafspy) and at this mileage have still only lost 19%, so IMHO, their 1 car study is HIGHLY subjective and relatively worthless as a reportable statistic.

RUKI

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#1913330 5-Dec-2017 14:07

happyfunball:

How did you come up with that number?
was 27.7% in this 2013 Leaf.

You are correct, it was typo - 28% (not 38%). My keyboard upper line on laptop is failing (2,3,4 not responding - have to attach external now). Glad you've done peer review (just another rule of Change Management :-))

To others commented - Idaho Lab never does just one car test. They are taking at least 3 or more cars. i.e. for DC charging test they were testing fleet of many Leafs.

Data obtained in USA IMO would differ from what we will see in New Zealand. Our climate (temperature fluctuations) is better to both Li & NiMH traction batteries. And if you do not use your Leaf (or other EV or Hybrid) in mountains, I would expect batteries to last longer and degrade slower in New Zealand.

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Linuxluver

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#1913359 5-Dec-2017 14:41

Idaho battery study also showed DC fast charging has no real impact on battery degradation. The thing that degrades batteries is high heat.

How high? The LEAF considers anything up to 52.5C to be normal.....judging by the temp bars.....that's the top of the tenth bar, just before going into the 11th bar (first of two that are red).

I will note that in NZ if you touch that red bar you won't stay their long.....it falls back in a handful of minutes if you're not moving...and faster if you drive slowly (75kph).

As @RUKI points out, NZ doesn't really see the temps over 35C at 2am and almost 50C during the day in a parking lot, like parts of the US do.

Time is the other factor.....and data collected by Flip the Fleet suggests that 2% to 4% degradation will happen anyway.....whatever one does. I'd prefer to be at the 2% end of that if there was anything I could so to help that happen. :-)

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Linuxluver

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#1913373 5-Dec-2017 14:57

frednz:

Even around town, I haven't read about any Leaf owners who claim to have achieved a range of 220km or more.

It would be possible, but in the same way one might do a thing to prove it's possible......but it wouldn't happen without the effort. :-)

Under ideal conditions you can get some great range. Here is what my LEAF made of my driving last Wednesday when I charged up in Taupo after arriving from Te Haroto (SH5 about 50km west of Napier). This is what you see after driving steadily downward at 80kph on an empty highway. :-)

Adding: I can easily get 2km per 1% of battery if I just stay at 80kph or below. Early morning or late at night that's do-able on many highways. If you're flexible time of day when travelling you can get some awesome range.

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Linuxluver

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#1913380 5-Dec-2017 15:10

frednz:
2017 Nissan Leaf 30X - Low mileage, larger capacity battery, range of 220km. 12/12 bar battery, 100% State Of Battery Health (SOH).

http://www.hopmans.co.nz/vehicle/2017-Nissan-LEAF/8033?s=1

Has anyone managed to get a range of 220km out of a 30X Nissan Leaf?

I found some city driving from a couple of weeks ago. I had charged up to 100% (which I don't usually do for daily driving) and then ran some errands around Ellerlsie / Greenlane / Mt Wellington. I went to the shops, the New World, Sylvia Park...and the vet....and Countdown.....

Traffic was heavy-ish. Lots of stop / go. Also some gentle rolling around.....plus the run on the motorway to Sylvia Park (8km) was about 80kph.

I realised I'd done 28.2km for only 10% of the battery. In theory, if I kept going like that, my range would be 282km on this charge. I know it tends to overdo it at the top and under do it at the bottom.....but I think 250km would be realistic with this pattern of city driving.

The GOM was being more conservative.....and only totals 216.2km when adding actual to estimated. :-)

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paulchinnz

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#1913454 5-Dec-2017 17:22

@RUKI re not doing one car study: the link you provided specifies one VIN, which I read as meaning the data were from one car. Have I misunderstood something?

I agree our more temperate climate should mean battery degradation less of an issue than those parts of US that get really hot.

frednz

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#1913559 5-Dec-2017 21:16

Linuxluver:

frednz:
2017 Nissan Leaf 30X - Low mileage, larger capacity battery, range of 220km. 12/12 bar battery, 100% State Of Battery Health (SOH).

http://www.hopmans.co.nz/vehicle/2017-Nissan-LEAF/8033?s=1

Has anyone managed to get a range of 220km out of a 30X Nissan Leaf?

I found some city driving from a couple of weeks ago. I had charged up to 100% (which I don't usually do for daily driving) and then ran some errands around Ellerlsie / Greenlane / Mt Wellington. I went to the shops, the New World, Sylvia Park...and the vet....and Countdown.....

Traffic was heavy-ish. Lots of stop / go. Also some gentle rolling around.....plus the run on the motorway to Sylvia Park (8km) was about 80kph.

I realised I'd done 28.2km for only 10% of the battery. In theory, if I kept going like that, my range would be 282km on this charge. I know it tends to overdo it at the top and under do it at the bottom.....but I think 250km would be realistic with this pattern of city driving.

The GOM was being more conservative.....and only totals 216.2km when adding actual to estimated. :-)

Thanks for giving us this interesting information. I came across this page which gives a good comparison of the EPA range of many different EVs:

http://pushevs.com/electric-car-range-efficiency-epa/

My experience as a potential buyer of an EV is that I want to compare the range of one EV with another on a consistent basis. The above page allows you to do this. Note that the EPA range of the 30kWh Nissan Leaf is 172 km, with an estimated 155km of range for highway driving and 191km for around town.

I think that, a car seller should first quote the official EPA range of the EV (in this case 172km) and then say that in ideal circumstances when driven at low speeds you might even get a range of 200km (or greater) from this EV.

I don't think that sellers should quote the range published by the less conservative Japanese rating agency standards as this seems to be too far away from real world performance. For example, the EPA range of the 2018 Leaf is quoted as 242km, but some people are also quoting a range of 400km for this EV.

I was passed by a Nissan Leaf when I was driving at 100kph on the motorway the other day, he was probably going nearly 110kph. I would imagine that the range at this speed would be a lot less than the EPA range of 172 km for the 30kWh Leaf!

Linuxluver

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#1913641 6-Dec-2017 00:36

frednz:

.....

I don't think that sellers should quote the range published by the less conservative Japanese rating agency standards as this seems to be too far away from real world performance. For example, the EPA range of the 2018 Leaf is quoted as 242km, but some people are also quoting a range of 400km for this EV.

I was passed by a Nissan Leaf when I was driving at 100kph on the motorway the other day, he was probably going nearly 110kph. I would imagine that the range at this speed would be a lot less than the EPA range of 172 km for the 30kWh Leaf!

Was it red? That might have been me. :)

As for the EPA......they use American driving conditions for petrol cars.....and there are only a handful of places in NZ where you can drive like that. Our roads are slower and up and down and often winding......so can be very much a blend of the NEDC and the EPA......

But I absolutely agree......if any driver insists on having a lead foot they will be disappointed with the range they achieve. :-)

I opted for a lighter foot.....and I'm happy with the range I get it.

At the end of the day much to do with range is between the ears of the driver...and how well they adapt their own driving habits to match what they claim are their own requirements.

People can be perverse.... :-)

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freeland

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#1913698 6-Dec-2017 09:00

Possible Solution to replacing Japanese Head Unit

As many Japanese-imported Leaf owners are aware, the Japanese language head unit is a pain in the ass.

Completely replacing the head unit is an option, but the side effect is that you loose the ability to set the charge and climate timers.

There is also the problem of imported Leafs frequently missing the SD card. My 2016 came without an SD card, but I found that MOST of the head unit features still work.

This fact lead me to a possible solution that would allow us to replace the head unit completely and still have the ability to set the timers.

Apparently the head unit is only sending commands over the CAN bus to set the timers, so these settings are not stored in the head unit. My SD-less 2016 head unit lets me set the timers, but won't let me save radio stations.

This suggests that if there was another method to send these commands, it would be possible to replace the head unit with a much better CarPlay or Android head unit.

To my thinking, shouldn't it be possible to add this as a feature to LeafSpy, as it already talking to the CAN bus and issuing commands, as demonstrated by the Service Menu and its ability to set the door lock settings, headlight settings etc.

I have sent Jim Pollock a version of this post explaining the situation in NZ, but I've not heard back from him yet.

Thoughts?

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RUKI

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#1913827 6-Dec-2017 12:24

freeland:

Possible Solution to replacing Japanese Head Unit

..... Completely replacing the head unit is an option, but the side effect is that you loose the ability to set the charge and climate timers.

.....to add this as a feature to LeafSpy .... I have sent Jim Pollock a version of this post explaining the situation in NZ, but I've not heard back from him yet.

Thoughts?

The same thought of asking Jim to add that feature came to me a while ago, but I were not bothered with sending him PM (although he is good in replying to valid requests) for the reasons being:

1) With LeafSpy - majority use BT, fewer people use WiFi (I tested 50 meters range with Leaf) - still not good enough. So no remote control really.

2) New Zealander (I know them in person) had already wrote a script to cover those features for the open source EV toolkit (works over GPRS) which is to replace TCU in Leaf - it makes metrics accessible and controllable over Internet (LeafSpy can't).

Waiting for that new version of hardware to become available to put it to the test. I am happy to invest into few units (do not know the price from HK developer yet), re-flash with the NZ developed soft and see if it is of any value for money.

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freeland

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#1913830 6-Dec-2017 12:37

RUKI:

The same thought of asking Jim to add that feature came to me a while ago, but I were not bothered with sending him PM (although he is good in replying to valid requests) for the reasons being:

1) With LeafSpy - majority use BT, fewer people use WiFi (I tested 50 meters range with Leaf) - still not good enough. So no remote control really.

As far as setting the timers, remote operation while nice to have, wouldn't matter.

As far as other hardware/software options I have have you seen Carloop? https://www.carloop.io

Browsing through their forum it notice a few people using the unit with the Leaf. If you look at their store, it seems that they have both wifi and bluetooth daughter boards available.

To me, that kit looks like it provides the building blocks that would allow more or less a complete replacement of Nissan Connect.

jonathan18

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#1915125 8-Dec-2017 10:40

freeland:

As many Japanese-imported Leaf owners are aware, the Japanese language head unit is a pain in the ass.

Completely replacing the head unit is an option, but the side effect is that you loose the ability to set the charge and climate timers.

Can someone please clarify this, ie in which particular circumstances will a head unit replacement result in the loss of ability to set timers?

We've just paid a deposit for a Leaf (X spec), and are paying to have the head unit replaced with one sourced from the US or UK (as my wife's keen to have it all in English) - given this is a like-for-like replacement with genuine Nissan parts (just with a different language) I'd assumed we'd maintain all features including timers - it would be useful to know if this isn't the case.

On a related matter, does anyone know if replacing the head unit in an X or G allow you to set the local time properly?

Many thanks.

afe66

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#1915140 8-Dec-2017 10:57

(unless it's there and I can't find it)

I've got leafspy pro, feature I'd like would be to display current (real time) power use as km/%battery which I'd find useful in judging how much battery got left when driving on open road.

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