Support for 'Crusaders' name change appears to be growing..

Forums › Sports › Support for 'Crusaders' name change appears to be growing..

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#2256185 11-Jun-2019 15:58

networkn:

GV27:

Ah yes, the old 'that's just what they want us to think!' excuse for doing nothing at all that might make us critically examine something we're passionate about from a dispassionate point of view.

LOL what!?

Look I know what it's like to passionately support something. I was a Ferrari fan pre- and post-Schumacher, for god's sake.

But I frequently see things like "all this panic is just giving him what he wants" which is longhand for "I'm comfortable in my own sphere and won't critically examine the world around me because I either don't want to or I can't be bothered". And hey, sometimes that's fuelled by a disbelief or not being able to fully cope with what has happened. It's a form of shock, and over time we'll feel different about it, just like how we feel different about Trump than we did in 2016.

But I'm not sure how moving the team away from a name like the Crusaders gives power to someone who saw themselves as a modern-day Knight Templar. That doesn't make any sense.

I'm not a Cantabrian so I am approaching this from a relatively neutral view. Ask yourself, would it be weird having a team called the Jihadis? or the Mujaheddin? I mean, if they ride in and wave Isis flags around, is it OK provided the kiddies enjoy it? It's just a bit of theatre after all.

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#2256195 11-Jun-2019 16:30

GV27:

I support the name change because it's weird that you have a team named after something that happened 200 years before anyone set foot in NZ.

At least the other teams are named after something relevant.

Hurricanes are named using a word they use overseas, for a Cyclone. So not really relevant, as we use the word cyclone in NZ nd this part of the ocean. Also cyclones/hurricanes are often a natural disaster causing lots of damage and often injuring and killing people.

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#2256212 11-Jun-2019 17:18

GV27:

networkn:

GV27:

Ah yes, the old 'that's just what they want us to think!' excuse for doing nothing at all that might make us critically examine something we're passionate about from a dispassionate point of view.

LOL what!?

Look I know what it's like to passionately support something. I was a Ferrari fan pre- and post-Schumacher, for god's sake.

But I frequently see things like "all this panic is just giving him what he wants" which is longhand for "I'm comfortable in my own sphere and won't critically examine the world around me because I either don't want to or I can't be bothered". And hey, sometimes that's fuelled by a disbelief or not being able to fully cope with what has happened. It's a form of shock, and over time we'll feel different about it, just like how we feel different about Trump than we did in 2016.

But I'm not sure how moving the team away from a name like the Crusaders gives power to someone who saw themselves as a modern-day Knight Templar. That doesn't make any sense.

I'm not a Cantabrian so I am approaching this from a relatively neutral view. Ask yourself, would it be weird having a team called the Jihadis? or the Mujaheddin? I mean, if they ride in and wave Isis flags around, is it OK provided the kiddies enjoy it? It's just a bit of theatre after all.

I mean, the "what about a team called the Jihadis" argument would be relevant if there actually was a team with such a name, but to my knowledge, there isn't. So in the meantime it's more of a strawman than anything else IMO.

Personally, I don't know why everybody seems to equate a rugby team with what that animal did just because the team happened to be based in the same city where it happened. The Crusaders absolutely aren't responsible for it. All changing the name will do is go against the wishes of ~76% of the population to appease a small minority of people, I just don't see what good it's going to achieve.

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#2256322 11-Jun-2019 20:01

My question is, what discussions have been had since 1996 and 14 March 2019? Thats 23 years with a dubious name. I don't think there ever was. Nor has it rattled around the media every few years.

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#2256323 11-Jun-2019 20:11

Being very blunt about this, if we change the name, what benefit comes of it? Is anyone supposing that without this name change, people are sitting at home, obsessing over how it represents bad things and it makes them feel less safe? (Genuine question), more likely for another attack? Does anyone wake up in the morning thinking about the name, imagery or anything else and feel bad about it?

If we rename it, realistically, are people for times to come going to be like, wow, that was worthwhile, I feel better about what happened now? Will it make a material difference to anyones lives at all?

I can *sort* of see the issue with the horses and the swords, so they are doing away with that, but changing the name?

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#2256424 12-Jun-2019 07:27

It's just more PC IMHO. We arent raising the issues of other names related to past negative events. Why not? We haven't been having this discussion for the last 23 years. Why not? With those two points in mind, this issue is a perfect example of a solution looking for a problem. Ignoring any radicals that complain about anything, we should be seeing an undercurrent of discount from our Muslim friends. I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing any low level simmering of this issue from them. I believe they said to Rugby NZ that they did not want to get involved.

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#2256431 12-Jun-2019 07:56

tdgeek:

It's just more PC IMHO. We arent raising the issues of other names related to past negative events. Why not? We haven't been having this discussion for the last 23 years. Why not? With those two points in mind, this issue is a perfect example of a solution looking for a problem. Ignoring any radicals that complain about anything, we should be seeing an undercurrent of discount from our Muslim friends. I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing any low level simmering of this issue from them. I believe they said to Rugby NZ that they did not want to get involved.

Feel free to name the issues with the Auckland Blues (two harbours), Chiefs (Maori History), Highlanders (Scottish History) or Hurricanes (granted this is a NH name but still a relevant weather phenomenon to the Wellington region).

When you start working through it that way, the Crusades is this oddly specific religious thing that has no relevance to NZ, happened hundreds of years ago that is totally out of place with the other names.

I suspect the Muslism in their community have bigger fish to fry in the immediate aftermath of what happened, but the fact they are not specifically naming something as a problem shouldn't stop us from looking into it ourselves.

It's not to say that Canterbury couldn't have a name that threw back to its English history like the Waikato or Otago teams. There's just no getting away from the religious overtones that their team does have and no one else's does. Much in the same way I wouldn't expect a team to be called the Quakers or the Earthquakes or something similar.

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#2256441 12-Jun-2019 08:11

GV27:

tdgeek:

It's just more PC IMHO. We arent raising the issues of other names related to past negative events. Why not? We haven't been having this discussion for the last 23 years. Why not? With those two points in mind, this issue is a perfect example of a solution looking for a problem. Ignoring any radicals that complain about anything, we should be seeing an undercurrent of discount from our Muslim friends. I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing any low level simmering of this issue from them. I believe they said to Rugby NZ that they did not want to get involved.

Feel free to name the issues with the Auckland Blues (two harbours), Chiefs (Maori History), Highlanders (Scottish History) or Hurricanes (granted this is a NH name but still a relevant weather phenomenon to the Wellington region).

When you start working through it that way, the Crusades is this oddly specific religious thing that has no relevance to NZ, happened hundreds of years ago that is totally out of place with the other names.

I suspect the Muslism in their community have bigger fish to fry in the immediate aftermath of what happened, but the fact they are not specifically naming something as a problem shouldn't stop us from looking into it ourselves.

It's not to say that Canterbury couldn't have a name that threw back to its English history like the Waikato or Otago teams. There's just no getting away from the religious overtones that their team does have and no one else's does. Much in the same way I wouldn't expect a team to be called the Quakers or the Earthquakes or something similar.

So you are ok with bad names, but not all bad names? Where does St John fit? IIRC they fought in those battles, and there is some issue with the Maltese Cross that St John Ambulance use

Why was the Crusaders name not been an issue on and off throughout the last 23 years?

If we see some names are bad but ok, and some are bad and not ok, how do we judge that?

It seems to me that there was no issue until March, and it suddenly became an issue. The issue is that the Crusades were Christians fighting Muslims. Put the boot on the other foot, us Christians were being fought by Muslims, there is no issue with that. Same with Germans and Japanese, we dont have issues with those cultures, despite what they did to us. Its history.

We can look into to this ourselves, we can assess that prior to March 15 there were no issues for the 23 year history, a quarter of a century of the rugby team concerned. If we do need to change he name we need a formula so that no part of negative history is favoured over others.

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#2256508 12-Jun-2019 09:33

GV27:

Much in the same way I wouldn't expect a team to be called the Quakers or the Earthquakes or something similar.

So, you are NOT ok with "Earthquakes", but ARE ok with "Hurricanes".

The issue is that some people, including you, are apparently tying the events in Christchurch to the name of a sports team when there is no relationship at all. The opposite is true, the Crusaders have been a positive organization going against everything in the Crusades that people people feel so wound up about.

You have yet to name one tanglible benefit to the name change. Will it make the events in CHCH less horrific? Less likely to happen again?

The *only* justification would be if the Muslim community came out and said they wanted it, but in reality suggesting it TO them is more likely to be insulting as it's exceptionally likely they have much bigger things to deal with and it's not going to change anything or make life any better for them.

Surely, the time, energy and money could be better spent on tangible things for them. Suggesting changing the name of a sports team will make them feel better is crazy in my view.

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#2256776 12-Jun-2019 14:55

networkn:

You have yet to name one tanglible benefit to the name change.

Apart from the whole "choose a name relevant to the region and not an event on the other side of the world from hundreds of years before humans arrived there" which is literally the main thrust of my argument?

There are plenty of things that communities might not clamour for change on, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to pretend everything people do is fine until challenged to stop. I'd like to think we're a little more proactive than that.

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#2256777 12-Jun-2019 14:58

GV27:

networkn:

You have yet to name one tanglible benefit to the name change.

Apart from the whole "choose a name relevant to the region and not an event on the other side of the world from hundreds of years before humans arrived there" which is literally the main thrust of my argument?

There are plenty of things that communities might not clamour for change on, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to pretend everything people do is fine until challenged to stop. I'd like to think we're a little more proactive than that.

Does the same name change apply to St John?

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#2256778 12-Jun-2019 14:59

networkn:

The issue is that some people, including you, are apparently tying the events in Christchurch to the name of a sports team when there is no relationship at all.

There were also numerous references on the suspected shooter’s weapons to medieval battles and figures, including four names of medieval Serbs who fought against the Muslim Ottomans, two Hungarian military leaders who fought the Ottomans, and numerous references to the Crusades, when Christian armies from Europe tried to seize the Holy Land from Muslims during the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries.

Yea I can't imagine what I was thinking.

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#2256780 12-Jun-2019 15:02

The sides in question were fighting for what each believed was the greater good. So many countries did that in history. At the time, for side A, side B was the enemy, and for side B, side A was the enemy. Now they aren't. And this applies to many countries. Then was then, now is now

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#2256781 12-Jun-2019 15:03

tdgeek:

Does the same name change apply to St John?

Has there been an incident where St Johns ambulance officers have killed 50 people in the name of John the Apostle that I'm not aware of?

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#2256782 12-Jun-2019 15:05

GV27:

networkn:

You have yet to name one tanglible benefit to the name change.

Apart from the whole "choose a name relevant to the region and not an event on the other side of the world from hundreds of years before humans arrived there" which is literally the main thrust of my argument?

There are plenty of things that communities might not clamour for change on, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to pretend everything people do is fine until challenged to stop. I'd like to think we're a little more proactive than that.

If they were *picking* a name now from scratch then I could understand it, though I'd like to understand the relevance to the Rebels in Melboure (Not sure if there has been a historically relevant Rebellion in Melbourne and if there was, are we sure no-one was killed, and no voilence was participated in), Warratahs in NSW and pretty much all the other teams names as "relevance" to the region.

IF they change the name, I hope they call it Super Rugby Team A so no one can ever take exception to it again.

/me SMH

The reason for the name change discussion in the first place is there was obviously a worry that someone might be offended by the current name. I have yet to see evidence that the only relevant party to this discussion, wants it, or indeed wouldn't be insulted at the gesture. I am sure they would prefer something meaningful.

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