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#2843851 5-Jan-2022 16:43

Let me put it to you like this, re Luck, WE ARE IN AGREEANCE. It is simply part of the game, and the whole point of luck in cricket is that you make hay while the sun shines, because eventually a ball will have your name on it. Which is where Bangers excelled. Its not close to bad sportsmanship, its the opposite, it is saying they played better. Not sure what part of that you are arguing about when nobody disagrees.

As for player changes, that is an obvious topic, one that everybody in cricket NZ is talking about, go check out social media. It was already a highly contentious team going in to India. Now that Kane is out it is being highlighted dramaticlly. NZ have other players they have used and whilst I think Blundell will take a year or so to exit the team as NZC give VERY long dry spells. I think they will be reassessing how Ravindra can fit in the team, or more so which games he might be useful. GP has already played so he is an obvious choice to stiffen the middle order and Mitchell will play all green pitches over Ravindra. So I dont think its overly complex or anything dramatic. NZ use to avg above 40 from 1 to 8. This team only 4 do and Nicholls is only just hanging on to a 40. That is dramatically obvious in how terrible our middle to tail was/is. I expect GP would average somewhere low 40s as all players that get to test level and can handle it, seem to have higher averages at test level than FC. I guess its due to being surrounded by a lot higher calibre team mates.

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#2843857 5-Jan-2022 16:55

Well, as long as Ive been in this topic, the commentary has been the same, get rid of this player, that player needs to learn to play better and so on. If we lose there is blame/excuses on everyone. If armchair opinions are better than the myriad if people involved, well, I'm not sure what to say

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#2843870 5-Jan-2022 17:27

Does anyone keep rolling averages of the batting averages? Where you can see a great player trending down, and a low, new player trending up. We seem to have a history of sticking with the older players for longer, maybe that needs to change. The last 10 tests average might be a good read. Similarly, as we hang on and hang on and hang on, the new blood hardly gets a go, they need injuries to show their wares.

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#2843878 5-Jan-2022 17:36

tdgeek:

Similarly, as we hang on and hang on and hang on, the new blood hardly gets a go, they need injuries to show their wares.

That is exactly the point. How long do you give a player, in this case blundell, He is definitely declining in averge since his start as an opener. There is a way to track it in cricinfo, also the ICC rankings are based on avg, if the avg keeps going up the player keeps going up in the rankings. Which when you get to averaging 65 like can has over the last 7 years, it must become hard, but he started with a low average overall. I think by the time he finishes he might be close to 60 overall.

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#2843973 5-Jan-2022 20:22

TeaLeaf:

tdgeek:

Similarly, as we hang on and hang on and hang on, the new blood hardly gets a go, they need injuries to show their wares.

That is exactly the point. How long do you give a player, in this case blundell, He is definitely declining in averge since his start as an opener. There is a way to track it in cricinfo, also the ICC rankings are based on avg, if the avg keeps going up the player keeps going up in the rankings. Which when you get to averaging 65 like can has over the last 7 years, it must become hard, but he started with a low average overall. I think by the time he finishes he might be close to 60 overall.

Typo? Kane?

My point is I dont care about career rankings based on batting average. I care about the now. The last 4 tests, the 4 before that the 4 before that. Like I said, we hold onto players for that ever deceasing big innings. Yet there are younger players with a very good FC average but no Test average, or they are rookies with a low ranking. They wait for injuries.We want the trading up, not trending down. So some are trending down, under more pressure to retain the spot, more tense, more watchful, they play not to lose. Newer players are always on the up

Whats Roscoe's average the for last 2 years? 3 years?

TeaLeaf

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#2844132 6-Jan-2022 10:33

Time to rotate some players for NZ, not wholesale changes, just giving other players a go, especially in the middle/keeper. Whats the bet NZC/Larsen wont though. Selecting your best players seems beyond them vs selecting the same old guard. Id like to see a couple of our bowlers being given a go too. I think Southee looks tired, clearly dont drop him. But we need to rotate players as they start to get passed 30yo and to give young talent a go, even if its just so they have been in and around the culture which has changed a lot since Mccullum and then Kane took over, for the better.

But Cleaver for me should be our WK if GP will not take the gloves again (which I think he would if asked to at Test level, hes a freak talent that can do it all and is one of our best fielders).

On another note in t20, Cleaver now at the top of runs scored and most 6s over taking Finn Allen (although Finn has only had 4 games). And Colin Munro, wow, #2 in Aus with avg 56 @ sr 145, that is insane. And is kind of sad, NZ dropped the t20 WC by not having a Munro type in the squad to replace Conway should he go and do something stupid like punch his bat and break his hand, ie injury. Just bloody minded by NZC and Larsen. They throw him a token gesture by including him in the 30 man squad instead. If I were him and asked to play for NZ again Id tell them where to stick it.

Big game today for one of these teams to get off the bottom of the table, with Otago vs Welli, 1 vs 2 (Welli 2/5 games, Otago 1/7). Hopefully Finn Allen lights it up like Phillipe is in the BB. 2 of my fav young players in Aus/NZ.

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#2844141 6-Jan-2022 10:56

TeaLeaf:

But Cleaver for me should be our WK if GP will not take the gloves again (which I think he would if asked to at Test level, hes a freak talent that can do it all and is one of our best fielders).

On another note in t20, Cleaver now at the top of runs scored and most 6s over taking Finn Allen (although Finn has only had 4 games). And Colin Munro, wow, #2 in Aus with avg 56 @ sr 145, that is insane. And is kind of sad, NZ dropped the t20 WC by not having a Munro type in the squad to replace Conway should he go and do something stupid like punch his bat and break his hand, ie injury. Just bloody minded by NZC and Larsen. They throw him a token gesture by including him in the 30 man squad instead. If I were him and asked to play for NZ again Id tell them where to stick it.

Big game today for one of these teams to get off the bottom of the table, with Otago vs Welli, 1 vs 2 (Welli 2/5 games, Otago 1/7). Hopefully Finn Allen lights it up like Phillipe is in the BB. 2 of my fav young players in Aus/NZ.

So you want someone who only keeps in a format where the keeper catches the ball 10 - 15 times in a game to keep for 90+ overs?

Why is GP a freak talent for test cricket? What has he done before that makes you think that?

Of course Cleaver or a CD player should be the 6 leader as they play in a primary school kids sized ground

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#2844143 6-Jan-2022 11:00

I see some are calling for Latham to be dropped. I would love to know who would replace him and if he was dropped what would you say when he goes back to first class cricket and averages higher than anyone else.

I agree Nicholls has not been playing well but I think similar would apply if he went back to FC cricket. He has a technique issue(s) which a lot of the people being called for also have but is hidden in NZ FC cricket.

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#2844147 6-Jan-2022 11:05

Looks typically like rain is not going to play ball in Welli today. I hope they get some play in.

The men and womens teams are directly at opposite ends of the table, but both Welli sides have 2 more games to go, Devine should be back soon, so expect that to be a big factor as well.

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#2844157 6-Jan-2022 11:18

Jas777:

I see some are calling for Latham to be dropped. I would love to know who would replace him and if he was dropped what would you say when he goes back to first class cricket and averages higher than anyone else.

I agree Nicholls has not been playing well but I think similar would apply if he went back to FC cricket. He has a technique issue(s) which a lot of the people being called for also have but is hidden in NZ FC cricket.

Dropping Latham would be crazy, may as well drop Williamson as well. :-). Nicholls home avg is ok, its his away of 25 I think from memory, that is the issue. We are missing Watling when we get to #6. We should have solidity to at least 6.

Rachin appears to be a talented opener, at u19 level and now FC, but we dont need an opener, so I think trying to force it is not the right way to go. Better off trying him at opener and moving Young down the order to the middle where he use to bat. Or just giving him some more time at FC. clearly he wont be playing in CCH where Mitchell is the obvious choice.

The problem is the middle. So if you were the selector how would you be resolving the middle order? And how would you keep young talented players rotating through the black caps test culture so when players retire/injured we have them ready to go?

Re GP, he can bat and he does it with intent in all 3 formats, he is a GUN fielder, he can bowl a bit (as good as Rachin imo), and he CAN keep but clearly isnt a specialist. He is an obviously highly talented all round cricketer and would have breezed into any prior NZ team. He got 1 test, made a 50 and hasnt been given another go since. For me he is an obvious choice to try around 5, 6 , 7. And unlike Rachin, he is a bit older and will not need protecting into the team at middle order.

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#2844220 6-Jan-2022 11:56

TeaLeaf:

Rachin appears to be a talented opener, at u19 level and now FC, but we dont need an opener, so I think trying to force it is not the right way to go. Better off trying him at opener and moving Young down the order to the middle where he use to bat. Or just giving him some more time at FC. clearly he wont be playing in CCH where Mitchell is the obvious choice.

The problem is the middle. So if you were the selector how would you be resolving the middle order? And how would you keep young talented players rotating through the black caps test culture so when players retire/injured we have them ready to go?

Re GP, he can bat and he does it with intent in all 3 formats, he is a GUN fielder, he can bowl a bit (as good as Rachin imo), and he CAN keep but clearly isnt a specialist. He is an obviously highly talented all round cricketer and would have breezed into any prior NZ team. He got 1 test, made a 50 and hasnt been given another go since. For me he is an obvious choice to try around 5, 6 , 7. And unlike Rachin, he is a bit older and will not need protecting into the team at middle order.

I was at that test where he got the 50. It did take 3 bats though. Looked ok but I will hold judgement on he would breeze into any team.

In an ideal world (which we don't have and even before Covid, it wasn't always possible) I would have the next 'cabs off the rank' playing A games overseas more. Can't see why an NZ A team can't play in Australia more often and some sub-continent A games.

Problem with FC in NZ is that batters get a lot of overs against average FC seamers (speed and swing wise) and never have to face a quality spinner. I do wonder that because the top 12 - 15 players don't play much FC cricket and 10 or so domestic cricketers are only playing white ball cricket that there really is enough talent for 6 teams in out FC comp.

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Dochart

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#2844222 6-Jan-2022 11:59

Jas777:
TeaLeaf:

Rachin appears to be a talented opener, at u19 level and now FC, but we dont need an opener, so I think trying to force it is not the right way to go. Better off trying him at opener and moving Young down the order to the middle where he use to bat. Or just giving him some more time at FC. clearly he wont be playing in CCH where Mitchell is the obvious choice.

The problem is the middle. So if you were the selector how would you be resolving the middle order? And how would you keep young talented players rotating through the black caps test culture so when players retire/injured we have them ready to go?

Re GP, he can bat and he does it with intent in all 3 formats, he is a GUN fielder, he can bowl a bit (as good as Rachin imo), and he CAN keep but clearly isnt a specialist. He is an obviously highly talented all round cricketer and would have breezed into any prior NZ team. He got 1 test, made a 50 and hasnt been given another go since. For me he is an obvious choice to try around 5, 6 , 7. And unlike Rachin, he is a bit older and will not need protecting into the team at middle order.

I was at that test where he got the 50. It did take 3 bats though. Looked ok but I will hold judgement on he would breeze into any team.

In an ideal world (which we don't have and even before Covid, it wasn't always possible) I would have the next 'cabs off the rank' playing A games overseas more. Can't see why an NZ A team can't play in Australia more often and some sub-continent A games.

Problem with FC in NZ is that batters get a lot of overs against average FC seamers (speed and swing wise) and never have to face a quality spinner. I do wonder that because the top 12 - 15 players don't play much FC cricket and 10 or so domestic cricketers are only playing white ball cricket that there really is enough talent for 6 teams in out FC comp.

I agree, we should be able to do NZ A vs Aus A as a yearly thing. I don’t know why we don’t play enough A games. If it’s due to money or Covid but when this is all over they should tour yearly. NZ A go to Aus and Aus A come to NZ.

TeaLeaf

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#2844238 6-Jan-2022 12:36

Jas777:

Problem with FC in NZ is that batters get a lot of overs against average FC seamers (speed and swing wise) and never have to face a quality spinner.

Very true, which is why Im always saying we need more spin in NZ and more support for its development. We cant expect our teams to be any good at facing it if they never have to. Even our best rippers of the ball like Sodhi, well, he doesnt even bowl his leg spin because there is no fielding support for it so he bowls the wrongin. I dont think we necessarily need more turning wickets, but wickets designed to break down in plunket shield etc. So different soil to our Test games etc. But also a better support and development for spin in general in NZ.

Phillips was a spinner before he was a keeper, he only keeps because the team doesnt have a good one. He has a reasonable FC avg for a part time spinner at 40, given most dont get below 35 in NZ or UK. He is soooo fast in the field often chasing down the boundaries as well as a Jonty type catcher. Edit: This article sums him up pretty good Glenn Phillips interview: New Zealand opener on bowling off-spin and keeping wicket | The Cricketer

Right now I think what NZC (test team) has done is get themselves in a tangle, they asked Young to become an opener not a middle order as that was blocked by Taylor, Nicholls, Watling etc and we were struggling to find an opener to match Latham's quality. So he did. Now he is performing his role, we have a young gun opener we want in the team and we are trying to force him into that Batsman- part time spin middle order role. Where Ideally we would have Rachin be dropped in the deep end like Latham was and ask him to perform as opener, but we cant now, unless we drop Young, which would be nuts given we have a very soft middle order which will get softer without Taylor and if Nicholls continues to OK at home and terrible away. Do we then ask Rachin to keep at it in FC, and like most players his time will come when one of the openers retires, or if Young doesnt deliver, or if Latham unlikely falls beyond bad form (not going to happen). Its a right quandy. but I think forcing Rachin at his age to play that all rounder role isnt right, when we need a middle who can score runs as well as support the top order

The other one obviously is wicket keep. Blundell I just dont rate at 6, even his FC career shows hes not going to be a strong run scorer, we were just so spoilt with Watling. But either way if you add Blundell with a young man acting as spin all rounder instead of opening in Rachin, on top of when Nicholls fails, is where the problem is amplified, compared to when Blundell was opening and Watling was a great keeper who could really score runs too. Blundell did a good job of seeing the new ball off which is the role when he was in the team as batsman only, scoring 40+ is a bonus for an opener, but with Young and now Rachin (and Jeet also has been in good form in FC), I dont see him opening again for NZ.

Who do you rate as the best NZ WK batsman?

If we carry Blundell as keeper, then he needs to be 7 and we need a middle order batsman at 6 who can bowl a bit, which for me, the only player is GP.

But they also need to keep a closer eye on the reality behind Nicholls, he got beyond very lucky last home season, yet it seems that was ignored in favour of its not how, its how many, which Im ok with, but not 6 dropped catches in an innings lol. Thats not luck, thats absurdly bad fielding gifting you runs. Also he clearly cant play spin at all and his away avg makes me think perhaps we should have replacement for him when touring.

Its a tangle which time will sort out, even with the speed of change in NZ selections.

Dochart:

I agree, we should be able to do NZ A vs Aus A as a yearly thing. I don’t know why we don’t play enough A games. If it’s due to money or Covid but when this is all over they should tour yearly. NZ A go to Aus and Aus A come to NZ.

If not an alternating 2 match Test series as well.

But yep a NZ A vs Aus A you would think given covid bubble fatigue and all that would be even more possible.

Jas777

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#2844261 6-Jan-2022 13:05

TeaLeaf:

Who do you rate as the best NZ WK batsman?

Currently if keeping is the most important bit then Fletcher and he can bat a bit also

But probably in the future it will be Chu from Otago who gets the job.

TeaLeaf

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#2844339 6-Jan-2022 14:38

Jas777:

Currently if keeping is the most important bit then Fletcher and he can bat a bit also

But probably in the future it will be Chu from Otago who gets the job.

I like Chu, although hes young, only a dozen or so FC games at around 32avg from memory. I just like him the SS.

Cam Fletcher has been going well for a while but is still young enough to offer continuity, I think that could be a good option. He should offer more runs than Blundell and a more positive intent.

Really the middle order is compounded by many things.

Since the WTC its been a landslide nearly every innings post #4. So you could through everyone in there, Nicholls, Blundell, Rachin and even KJ as he is far better than hes been of late and possibly even Southee who just wants to smash it regardless of what the team needs, ie support Nicholls.

Nicholls is a hard one, he averages 40, but only seems to bring out the big innings when hes about to be released. If we had given Young a go at 5 over Nicholls, Im sure he would still be there and we would now have space for Rachin to play opener.

Blundell, well, imo he will end up averaging around 25 in tests, which is below par even for a keeper, we can do better.

Rachin, shouldnt be #7 for NZ. For me its Mitchell or GP and both should be ahead of Blundell.

The easiest way to resolve this would be to ask Rachin to wait his turn in FC and NZ A, improving his game waiting for Latham/Young to retire in ~6 years. We have done that to many a player including Young (in hind sight Nicholls over Young was a bad decision imo).

GP at 6 and Cam Fletcher at 7 would provide more stability imo, and then when Nicholls fails again or we are touring sub cont, then shuffle Young back to 5 and Rachin to open. Young, GP, Fletcher, KJ, that would be a very strong mid-tail.

1. Latham
2. Rachin
3. Williamson
4. Conway
5. Young
6 Glenn Phillips
7. Cam Fletcher (WK)
8. KJ
9. Southee
10 Wags
11 Boult

Yep, that looks a LOT more solid. Then we can carry Rachin provided he just sees off the new ball, runs can come later in his career. I dont see Young with his talent having an issue playing anywhere in the top 5.

Possibly rest Southee (wags didnt play Ind and Boult asked to be released due to Covid bubble fatigue), so hes been in the field a lot and was away a long time, so maybe have Ben Sears come into the team, vs somebody like Bang, just to give him experience in the new culture of the team. Also on the H park pitch I think he would be a handful, hes improving rapidly despite the white ball tour, at home he should be pressing for a spot imo. Having that 150+ type bowler in the team really adds some fear factor that most great teams have had, ie Starc at his peak. Wagner also provides the ability to give shorter sharp spells for express pace. Phillips can handle being the part timer, although I think he might do better than some think in the Sub Cont and even though he would be opening, Rachin can do the same.

That team adds a lot of solidity to the middle and also offers a many bowling option, with the ability to have the pace men do less overs but higher quality.

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